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argument over elbows

4K views 23 replies 13 participants last post by  Onganju 
#1 ·
i was talking to my bjj coach who also hasdone some muay thai and he said pretty much outside of muay thai elbows arent that effective at knocking people out. he told me even in muay thai knockouts from an elbow strike are pretty rare. so what do you guys. are elbows effective or do most guys just use them to open cuts. where are they most effective. just looking for opinions.
 
#2 ·
GnP, and opening cuts, I agree with your instructor, it's rare to see knockouts via elbows although it does happen from time to time, but they are more effective in helping set-up other strikes and submissions.
 
#3 ·
I can't remember who was fighitng bu the fighter was in a real tight spot, about to get tko'd and he swung a wild elbow and had the other guys nose hanging off. That won the fight for him. Also, see anderson silvas cagerage elbow knockout. They're obviously more limeted than punches, but the elbow is way harder.
 
#5 ·
your instructor is wrong. elbos are more powerfull then punches the problem is most people dont know how to use them effectively. When you use elbo strikes up close you have to maintain the form that you would while throwing punches. Most people dont do that and thats why their elbos suck.

Elbos are a close combat weapon and quite frankly they are under utilized. Imagine this throw your elbows as you would throw a hook uppercut or right cross in the same manner except you retract your hand and only use the elbo. The amount of force is stronger then if you use your arm.

The reason behind that is because you are using the exact same muscles to generate force which is your back and legs but now you are swinging a more compact object around so the strike is more crisp. Also its harder to do damage with your hand because alot of times fighters will dissapate force when the hit doesnt land smoothely because of the wrist with the elbo its one solid blunt object.
 
#7 ·
mrmyz said:
your instructor is wrong. elbos are more powerfull then punches the problem is most people dont know how to use them effectively. When you use elbo strikes up close you have to maintain the form that you would while throwing punches. Most people dont do that and thats why their elbos suck.

Elbos are a close combat weapon and quite frankly they are under utilized. Imagine this throw your elbows as you would throw a hook uppercut or right cross in the same manner except you retract your hand and only use the elbo. The amount of force is stronger then if you use your arm.

The reason behind that is because you are using the exact same muscles to generate force which is your back and legs but now you are swinging a more compact object around so the strike is more crisp. Also its harder to do damage with your hand because alot of times fighters will dissapate force when the hit doesnt land smoothely because of the wrist with the elbo its one solid blunt object.
OK, more powerful than punches???? What school did you go to, anyone who has ever studied any Martial Art knows that Kicks & Punches are the most powerful strikes, elbows can cause serious damage like cutting someone and can "sometimes"knockout people but a kick or punch will KO someone a whole lot faster (ex:CRO COP, LIDDELL)so to say that elbows are more powerful is absolutley absurd. The range is just in a completely different class...plain old physics man :)
 
#8 ·
jamlena said:
OK, more powerful than punches???? What school did you go to, anyone who has ever studied any Martial Art knows that Kicks & Punches are the most powerful strikes, elbows can cause serious damage like cutting someone and can "sometimes"knockout people but a kick or punch will KO someone a whole lot faster (ex:CRO COP, LIDDELL)so to say that elbows are more powerful is absolutley absurd. The range is just in a completely different class...plain old physics man :)
Actually... The generation of force within an elbow or knee strike is higher than that of a punch or kick. However, the surface area that the force transfers through is much bigger in an elbow or knee. Where a punch would be a whip or spear, the elbow is your club. It's the same reason why a low velocity round being shot out of a gun will pierce flesh and cause internal trauma, but a beabag shot out of a 12-gauge will cause surface trauma and not carry the same amount of "lethalness." The surface area of the fist is smaller than that of the elbow and transfers the force better.

I can see where northcoastmma's coach is coming from. In a full-range stand-up contest, elbows shine in the limited confines of the clinch. Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks.

Now in MMA, because of the clinch and also ground fighting, elbows are probably more effective than punches simply for the fact that you do not need a greater amount of distance to create force on the elbow. So in that regards, the elbow is golden in application.

Now the reason why cuts are so prevalent with elbows is because you are not required to pad your elbows. If your hit an elbow correctly, you would be hitting with the point of the elbow instead of lower on your forearm. In which case, connecting to the orbital area or other bony areas of the face will cause cuts very easily as the skin is pressured between 2 sharp objects causing it to split open. The same thing is possible off of a punch, but is not as likely due to the fact that the glove disperses some of the direct force.
 
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#9 ·
jamlena said:
OK, more powerful than punches???? What school did you go to, anyone who has ever studied any Martial Art knows that Kicks & Punches are the most powerful strikes, elbows can cause serious damage like cutting someone and can "sometimes"knockout people but a kick or punch will KO someone a whole lot faster (ex:CRO COP, LIDDELL)so to say that elbows are more powerful is absolutley absurd. The range is just in a completely different class...plain old physics man :)
Just because you dont know how to use them doesnt mean that the fist is more powerful. Think about it lodgically if you punch properly the power from your punches comes from back and your feet. If you do an uppercut properly you barely move your hands and all. Hooks are more hips and legs right crosses are back. The force from the punch is exactly the same the difference is the contact surface. One is a pointed edge the other is two knuckles.
 
#10 ·
Onganju said:
Actually...
Now in MMA, because of the clinch and also ground fighting, elbows are probably more effective than punches simply for the fact that you do not need a greater amount of distance to create force on the elbow. So in that regards, the elbow is golden in application.
QUOTE]

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OK, I see your point but that is not what the origianl question was, the question was not are elbow strikes more effective but instead are elbow strikes more effective in KO's, and it simply cannot be argued that elbows are more effective at KO's than punches or kicks due to physics and body mechanics,if elbows were so powerful at KO's every other MMA fighter would practice elbow strikes relentlessly and would try to clinch each and every time, but they know that there is no KO power like the very end of a full punch or kick. Well that's my opinion anyway.
 
#11 ·
Onganju said:
Actually... The generation of force within an elbow or knee strike is higher than that of a punch or kick. However, the surface area that the force transfers through is much bigger in an elbow or knee. Where a punch would be a whip or spear, the elbow is your club. It's the same reason why a low velocity round being shot out of a gun will pierce flesh and cause internal trauma, but a beabag shot out of a 12-gauge will cause surface trauma and not carry the same amount of "lethalness." The surface area of the fist is smaller than that of the elbow and transfers the force better.

I can see where northcoastmma's coach is coming from. In a full-range stand-up contest, elbows shine in the limited confines of the clinch. Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks.

Now in MMA, because of the clinch and also ground fighting, elbows are probably more effective than punches simply for the fact that you do not need a greater amount of distance to create force on the elbow. So in that regards, the elbow is golden in application.

Now the reason why cuts are so prevalent with elbows is because you are not required to pad your elbows. If your hit an elbow correctly, you would be hitting with the point of the elbow instead of lower on your forearm. In which case, connecting to the orbital area or other bony areas of the face will cause cuts very easily as the skin is pressured between 2 sharp objects causing it to split open. The same thing is possible off of a punch, but is not as likely due to the fact that the glove disperses some of the direct force.
your right on its like comparing a rifle to a shot gun blast but because the elbows arent padded you get more external damage as opposed to penetrating power. Its the same for people like me instead of doing round kicks with my shin I do them with the ball of the foot because the kicks have more penetration. In a mma application you would want this because you could call the fight quicker because of excessive bleeding. They are primarily the short range weapon of choice
 
#12 ·
mrmyz said:
Just because you dont know how to use them doesnt mean that the fist is more powerful. Think about it lodgically if you punch properly the power from your punches comes from back and your feet. If you do an uppercut properly you barely move your hands and all. Hooks are more hips and legs right crosses are back. The force from the punch is exactly the same the difference is the contact surface. One is a pointed edge the other is two knuckles.
To tell you the truth man I have been in the Martial Arts for 18 years and have studied everything from elbow strikes to BJJ, I am by no means an expert but I do know a "little" something about striking and MMA. You have your opinion and I have mine, but my opinion is backed up by:
1) Years and years of training & teaching
2) Physics (can't argue with Science:dunno: )
3) Research (look at how most MMA fighters KO people out)
it's the "law of averages"
 
#13 ·
mrmyz said:
your right on its like comparing a rifle to a shot gun blast but because the elbows arent padded you get more external damage as opposed to penetrating power. Its the same for people like me instead of doing round kicks with my shin I do them with the ball of the foot because the kicks have more penetration. In a mma application you would want this because you could call the fight quicker because of excessive bleeding. They are primarily the short range weapon of choice
As always people on these forums start to change the question to fit their answer. No one was disputing whether or not elbows were effective or not, the question was that his instructor claimed that the elbow strike was not more effective in knocking people out and in my opinion that is true. The punch or kick is more effective in pure KO effectiveness.
 
#14 ·
jamlena said:
OK, I see your point but that is not what the origianl question was, the question was not are elbow strikes more effective but instead are elbow strikes more effective in KO's, and it simply cannot be argued that elbows are more effective at KO's than punches or kicks due to physics and body mechanics,if elbows were so powerful at KO's every other MMA fighter would practice elbow strikes relentlessly and would try to clinch each and every time, but they know that there is no KO power like the very end of a full punch or kick. Well that's my opinion anyway.
Actually... The OP asks 3 questions.

1) He asks whether they are effective. I say they are, but I do agree that most knock outs don't come from elbows. I openly state: "Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks."

2) He asks whether they are used just to open cuts. I simply state that good elbow are more likely to open cuts.

3) He asks where they are most effective. I simply state in the clinch and on the ground. I don't think there's any argument against that. I'm not going to tell anyone to open their fights with a step-in or spinning elbow strike.

The other details is just me trying to add relevant information.
 
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#15 ·
Onganju said:
Actually... The OP asks 3 questions.

1) He asks whether they are effective. I say they are, but I do agree that most knock outs don't come from elbows. I openly state: "Statistically speaking, most KOs in MT matches come from Punches followed by High Kicks."

2) He asks whether they are used just to open cuts. I simply state that good elbow are more likely to open cuts.

3) He asks where they are most effective. I simply state in the clinch and on the ground. I don't think there's any argument against that. I'm not going to tell anyone to open their fights with a step-in or spinning elbow strike.

The other details is just me trying to add relevant information.
quote: jamlena:GnP, and opening cuts, I agree with your instructor, it's rare to see knockouts via elbows although it does happen from time to time, but they are more effective in helping set-up other strikes and submissions.
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Onganju, great points and in my first response I agreed with all of them (see above), I was simply stating that strike for strike, elbows just are not in the same class as punches and kicks for pure Knockout effectiveness.
 
#17 ·
Atreides69 said:
have to disagree there....if i get in good and close and land a clean elbow strike under your ear, you're gonna stay down for half an hour and you won't chew for a week....can't land many punches that could do the same damage!
True... But you can say the same for a solidly placed punch to the base of the jaw also. Statistically speaking, punches are acredited for more KOs than any other strike. As it is, I don't think you're going to see any recorded finishes to fights from an elbow to the body. However, punches to the body have produced many KOs (some of which are the most painful that I've ever seen).
 
#18 ·
don't use a hammer to cut wood, and don't use a saw to hammer nails......
elbows, punches, kicks, and knees.... all are great for each of their own use. i feel it is all about timing and placement, of your strikes
 
#19 ·
kishiro said:
don't use a hammer to cut wood, and don't use a saw to hammer nails......
elbows, punches, kicks, and knees.... all are great for each of their own use. i feel it is all about timing and placement, of your strikes
Good point :thumbsup:
 
#21 ·
Instead of risking not adressing the actual question at hand, i will first refer to them directly.

northcoastmma said:
i was talking to my bjj coach who also hasdone some muay thai and he said pretty much outside of muay thai elbows arent that effective at knocking people out.
I tend to agree. As pointed out previously, unless the elbow strike is delivered with the point of the elbow making contact then the surface area involved is too big and the power is disipated over that area. Ok, I agree that a properly delivered elbow strike contact would be made with the point of the elbow, but realistically, unless you are in a position to strike with the elbow in a downward motion, then atleast some forearm will be involved.

northcoastmma said:
he told me even in muay thai knockouts from an elbow strike are pretty rare.
Again this has been previously covered in this thread and all I can say is your instructor is correct.

northcoastmma said:
are elbows effective or do most guys just use them to open cuts.
To this I would say that yes they are a very effective weapon. At close distance the power that can be generated is tremendous. And unfortunately I have to say yes, most guys (especially in the UFC and other such orgs.)use elbows to open cuts or to work on an exsisting cut. I personally hate seeing fights end due to cuts and intentionally trying to cut on someone, I feel (YES, MY OPINION) is a cheap way out.

northcoastmma said:
where are they most effective.
They are especially effective in San Diego, Santa Cruz ... LOL No, Seriously, they are most effective anytime you are in close quarters. Whether standing or on the ground. They are extremely effective when you are in a position above your opponent and can rain the elbows down on your opponent making contact with the point of the elbow. Illegal in the UFC.


Now with all of this said, I find my elbows to be an extremely effective weapon and have knocked a couple people out with them. Now it was in street fights against untrained fighters. They come rushing in and elbow straight to the temple, and down they went. I have broken several noses with elbows and I have broken a guys collarbone with an elbow strike. He was on his knees in front of me and I drove the elbow straight down into the top of his shoulder. Not the ball at the end of the shoulder but the space between the shoulder and the neck. Broke his clavicle in two places. He screamed and the fight was over. He just laid there and cried like a little girl. So yes. Elbow strikes are a very effective weapon and you should train them like you train every other weapon in your personal aresenol. But are they gonna be your big knock out weapon, probably not.
 
#22 ·
They are amazing in side control. Gsp does that. He pounds at thier face in side control thier also very good in the triangle, as you saw with anderson vs lutter. In the clinch thier very good, i nice rapid shot to the face. I think elbows are pretty good. I wont use them unless im in side control, but my dad tells me every time he got into a fight he'd elbow.

You might wanna see this video.


YouTube - Andrson Silva standing elbow KO
 
#23 ·
By the laws of physics, elbows cannot be as good at KOing people as punches or kicks. A punch or kick if applied properly has your entire body behind it. With a high kick for example, you pivot your foot and rotate your hips. The kick is not coming out of your leg muscles, but out of the rotation of your entire body. Thats a lot of force, and force is what causes knockouts, the more mass you can deliver on the target, the higher the probability of a KO. To KO someone, you have to make their brain knock back and forth in their skull. Even if you can put more energy behind an elbow strike, it's still only the mass of your arm. Lets say an arm weighs around 8kg, maybe 10. Imagine hitting someone in the head as hard as you can with an 8kg club (would prolly knock them out still, but thats due to a different principle). Now compare that to hitting someone in the head as hard as you can with a 60-80 kg club. Which one do you think would be more likely to KO someone?
Elbows are great because they can break bones fairly easily, and come especially in handy during street fight, but they don't have the KO power a well placed punch will have.
 
#24 ·
-Lukas- said:
By the laws of physics, elbows cannot be as good at KOing people as punches or kicks. A punch or kick if applied properly has your entire body behind it. With a high kick for example, you pivot your foot and rotate your hips. The kick is not coming out of your leg muscles, but out of the rotation of your entire body. Thats a lot of force, and force is what causes knockouts, the more mass you can deliver on the target, the higher the probability of a KO. To KO someone, you have to make their brain knock back and forth in their skull. Even if you can put more energy behind an elbow strike, it's still only the mass of your arm. Lets say an arm weighs around 8kg, maybe 10. Imagine hitting someone in the head as hard as you can with an 8kg club (would prolly knock them out still, but thats due to a different principle). Now compare that to hitting someone in the head as hard as you can with a 60-80 kg club. Which one do you think would be more likely to KO someone?
Elbows are great because they can break bones fairly easily, and come especially in handy during street fight, but they don't have the KO power a well placed punch will have.
The thing about elbows (and any strike) is that when you are trained properly to throw them, you will involve your whole body mass. That is the case with any strike whether it be a punch, kick, knee, etc. However, you will not be able to pin-point an elbow to the "sweet spots" with the same regularity as a punch or kick. The range of motion, and reach make it close to impossible wich is why you aren't going to see someone getting knocked out from an elbow to the ribs, liver, or solar plexus (all which can be attacked by punches or kicks with regularity in stand-up outside the clinch).

However, if you elbow someone in the base of the skull, temple, or jaw you can put someone out just are dependablly as a punch. You chances are probably even higher in a clinch or on the ground, because you don't have the needed distance for the punch to accelerate to generate the same force.

As stated before, each has its place. You're not going to try to elbow someone when you can only reach them with a punch, and you're not going to try to punch someone in a tight clinch expecting to see a lot of damage done. Again, you're not going to use a saw when you need a hammer right?
 
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