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post #6 of (permalink) Old 12-09-2010, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Alves has never walked into the cage above 200 pounds after making 170. I don't know where that rumor has come from, but it's patently ridiculous. Even after missing weight against Hughes and Fitch, it's doubtful that he came in higher than 190. I don't know where the rumors are coming from, but 200 pounds is nuts.
When he fought GSP he said in at the prefight confrence call that he would walk into the cage at 195. GSP said he would walk in at 190. 25lbs of 195 is 13%.
Considering guys Fitch made Alves look tiny by comparison I would actually bet that Fitch cuts more than 15%
Again, St. Pierre at 195 is an enormous stretch. At 15% you're talking about GSP cutting basically 30 pounds to make weight. Nobody puts that 30 pounds back on overnight, and I doubt Jackson would suggest that he'd cut that much in a single session. There are serious health risks, and he would be very, very slow walking into the cage that dense.
GSP said he was 190 for Alves and also said he had been bulking up before the Hardy fight so 195 seems in the appropriate vicinity.
Just to be clear, Lesnar does cut to 265. He doesn't cut as much as he used to, since the illness, but he still cuts to 265. If he were going into training camp at 265, or even coming into the fight around there, he'd be fine in terms of weight.
I am just going off the talk and Lesnar's camp have repeatedly said that he didn't cut weight for his last two fights.
Again, Lesnar isn't starting at 265 pounds. He may weight 265 when he walks back into the cage, but he still cuts to get there. He's not going to lose weight down to a raw 255 or whatever he needs and then cut an additional 20 pounds, which would be a more than reasonable range.
Anthony Johnson cut 30lbs the day of the weigh ins against Yoshida and actually tried to cut from 220 to 170 before only being able to make 176. Still that is 44 pounds cut by a WW who is 65 pounds lighter. I am not saying Lesnar is not gonna have difficulty but its incredibly realistic that he could make weight.
If he did, his athleticism would suffer. I doubt we'd see fighters like Lesnar take that risk and, frankly, I doubt that he could do it for an extend period of time with any substantial results.
If 190-195lb pound GSP can drop 20lbs - 25lbs with ease and easily run the full 25 minutes I fail to see how Lesnar who is one and a half times his size losing a mere 5 pounds more is so difficult.
There are plenty of lightheavyweights who can make the middleweight limit, but opt to stay up, or take a few fights and then decide to stay at lightheavyweight, because of the difficulty of the cut.
There are but I don't see anybody campaigning to create a 195 pound division for the poor guys.

There are other reasons why Cheick can't make lightheavyweight, even from the lean 230 he's around right now.

Obviously, all of this is dependent on build. 10% is a generous figure applied to people with wrestling experience. Cheick doesn't have the best build for cutting weight and doesn't have the wrestling experience to know how to do it easily, so it becomes a serious problem very quickly.
There are plenty of good trainers with knowledge that could guide Cheick through the process if he desired to do so.

Again, the heavyweight division becomes far more complicated that the difference between 155 and 170. The difference, proportionally, between heavyweight and lightheavyweight may seem to make up for it, but it doesn't.

There are plenty of lightheavyweights who are bigger than the smaller heavyweights, and should be fighting those heavyweights, but don't want to move into the heavyweight division permanently because it isn't a good long term plan, even if there are a few fights there that are great matchups because of the similar size.
The reason they don't fight at HW is the same reason that the big HW's who can make the cut to 235 would. Most fighters try to obtain a size and strength advantage by cutting to the lowest division possible.
Similarly, there are plenty of heavyweights who thrive on giving up that size advantage in favor of speed. But that is pretty rare. The existence of a cruiserweight division would encourage those fighters to fight more competitive, difficult matchups instead of relying on bigger, slower opponents, but also offer the outlet of a bigger, slower heavyweight division where someone like a Frank Mir, who likes that style matchup most of the time, would have to test himself against more difficult versions of it.
The match ups IMO stay the same. As I continue to believe that the bigger fighters would just have to struggle down and make the cut.

Again: No one cuts 15% of their body mass. It's incredibly dangerous. It's incredibly wearing.

It's not impossible, but when fighters do it there are serious consequences for their cardio.
It may not be good for them but going back to Anthony Johnson when he fought Yoshida he cut 20% of his body mass. Your saying that 15% is incredibly hard on a person but in all honesty when we look at the weight some guys are cutting its becoming a scary trend in MMA to cut as much weight as possible instead of cutting what is reasonable. These fighters may not be acting in the best interests of there long term heath but we are seeing every division continue to grow in terms of the bigger guys in each division. Fighters seem to continue to look for any edge they can find and they are lighter fighters cutting just as much if not more weight to make there respective divisions than Lesnar or Carwin would have to.

Again, Lesnar is not at 280. He still cuts to 265. The math is still not good for him.

The same is true for Carwin. Could Carwin cut to 235? Probably.

You know how he would look afterwards? Imagine a young Lou Ferrigno playing the Grim Reaper.
Really Carwin weiged 259 when he fought Gonzaga. That is a 24 pound cut or about the same amount of weight GSP cuts to fight at 170. If Carwin got his weight back to were it was at that time not only would the cut be do able but it would actually be fairly reasonable by comparision.

I don't think so. The penalty in cardio at 265 is pricey for many of these guys and they barely have the gas tank to lose. Cutting gets very difficult very quickly for guys who have to put their body through that strain, especially if their not used to it.
These guys all train hard though and like I said previously every fighter is always looking for any available edge.

The list of interesting prospects is extensive. If the UFC were good at signing guys, they'd have them. The talent is out there.

Dan Cormier is a professional. Tony Johnson Jr. has come up. So has Soa Palelei. All three are well within striking distance. Bellator has a few solid guys.

And then there's always the possibility of recruiting out of the NFL, which the UFC seems to really like the idea of doing.

Soa Palelei? I haven't seen his recent fights but he hardly impressed in the past his fight with Eddie Sanchez is still one of the most horrible bouts in UFC history. The talent is somewhat improving but the number of "true" HW's as you see it are still pretty thin.
In the lightheavyweight and heavyweight division, there's a long tradition of cross-competition. I know my history on the subject, and so do you.

Randleman, Couture, Liddell, Coleman, and those are just the guys who held belts in one (or both, in Randy's case) division who cross that threshold between heavyweight and lightheavyweight when the heavyweight division was more limited in the size of competitors. I have no reason to think that the existence of a cruiserweight division wouldn't look that way.

The lightweight/welterweight bridge is the only one that has seen some similar sort of maleability, but that's not surprising either. The welterweight, middleweight, and lightheavyweight division traditionally have about a three inch height difference between the average fighter, so guys tend to be more sure about their own weightclass, though that has changed a little bit in recent years.
Your right the LHW and HW divisions have that history but that is because the size difference has traditionally not been an issue. Tim Sylvia wasn't to big for Randy Couture. The size gap between HW ad LHW is often overstated

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