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post #8 of (permalink) Old 12-09-2010, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Again, I'm going to maintain that these numbers are inflated. I heard the same interviews, but the concept of putting on twenty pounds of weight in a day is totally bizarre to me, especially after the weight-cut.
The Alves being at 195, GSP at 185 for there fight and the Rumble numbers for the Yoshida fight are straight from them. I see little reason for them to exagerate.
There's a reason guys drink pedialyte afterwards. It isn't for the taste.
I know pedialyte is great if your dehydrated I drink a bottle before I got to bed after drinking all night to avoid a hang over. (works great)
Alves is tricky to judge, because he has so many weight issues (plus the history of diuretics use), so I can believe something more flexible, like 190-195. Again, though, that these guys are putting on this much weight after a fight seems more myth to me.
A lot of these guys are also taking fluids intravenously because its just not possible to drink that much.
I don't think the difference between Fitch and Alves was substantial in their weigh ins appearance. Fitch looked shredded (a lot of people also thought he looked gaunt, myself included; look at his face). But Alves is physically a lot thicker than Fitch, though that doesn't come across as clearly in the picture.
I didn't think the size difference appeared that great at the weigh ins but I remember watching the fight being amazed at how much bigger Fitch looks. The guy is massive for a WW and appears to me to be getting into the Rumble size range.


This is what I mean about the stories getting out of control. Anthony Johnson came into training camp at 220 pounds. He did not make 44 pounds in one swing.
I was going off the numbers Johnson gave in a interview were he said he missed weight due to a failed experiment were he tried to cut from 220 and that he was 200 on the day of the weigh ins.

Johnson is (by far) the largest welterweight in the UFC. He may be the largest welterweight in the world (certainly the largest, physically, that I've ever seen) and he has a great ability to cut weight, despite the issues with Yoshida, but he hit those issues cutting from around 200, which is significantly different than cutting from 220, where you might as well just start cutting off limbs.
Like I said I am going off the numbers Johnson himself gave as a reason for his missing weight. Sounds incredibly dangerous and stupid but again I fail to see why he would lie.
I think Lesnar could make 235. I just don't think he'd ever want to. The consequences of putting a guy that big through a weightcut that strenuous is very, very rough, especially at his age. Johnson is 26, and he knows that at some point in his career, he's not going to be able to make the cut to welterweight anymore. Lesnar, by contrast, is 33. As you get older, that cut gets harder, it gets tougher to lose the weight and the toll it takes on your cardio is much higher (ask Mark Coleman; he knows as well as anybody).
Coleman was substantially older than Lesnar is and he only looked that terrible from the cut against Shogun. He looked bad in his other fights because well he is just plain old and beat up.

I expect this sport to get to a point, if the talent pool gets big enough, to have a weightclass ever ten pounds. But we're not there yet.

The split between 185-205 is, well, 40 pounds smaller than the heavyweight and lightheavyweight limits, and so the difference is significant. Just as guys do have the opportunity to try and span that gap in the lightheavyweight-middleweight division, they should try and span it in lightheavyweight-heavyweight division.

The reason they don't is because of that added 40 pounds they know they have to deal with. There are a few guys who have given it a swing in the past, but (and Brandon Vera is a case study) eventually they fight a guy that just kills the will ever to fight in that division again.[/FONT]
The thing is that you like many people look at the divsions as hard lines. There is nothing saying a MW has to weigh in at 185. Diego Sanchez could choose not to cut any weight and move up to MW and fight at as low as 171 pounds. You could have 171 pound Sanchez fight a guy like Nate Marquardt at MW. It would not be a fair fight but that would be due to Sanchez not using the available weight divisions and a fighters ability and option to cut weight to the fullest. I have little sympathy for a guy like Cheick Kongo who is a relatively small HW because if he chose to go that route he could be a large LHW.


I think you're shortselling the way that cutting weight would affect these big guys. I have no doubt that plenty of fighters would give it a shot, but the reality is that it takes a serious toll and that shows in the cage. The ideal weight for competing at 235 is about 250-255 pounds, with a grace period of about ten pounds for people with serious weight cutting experience, but the reality is that it penalizes the big guys seriously for attempting to obtain that strength advantage that they were just given before. [/quote] If you want to argue lowering the HW weight cap in order to even the playing field by forcing the big guys to cut more weight than that is a different discussion entirely. As it stands many of these big guys are successful because of that size and strength advantage and without it there fights become a battle of skills and lets be honest most of them all not on the level of some of the smaller HW's and fighters in other divisions.
If big guys want to come down to 235 to be big guys, that's fine. That's what they should do. But it's better than forcing the middle-sized guys (Nogueira, Mir, etc.) to fight big guys with no substantive advantage.
Mir has bulked up to the point he is not longer considered a small HW, at over 250lbs he is a decent sized HW. This is something some of these guys should consider. Your faulting the big HW's because the smaller guys are not taking full advantage of there options.
Again: No one cuts 15% of their body mass. It's incredibly dangerous. It's incredibly wearing.
I have obviously never attempted it myself but there are fighters who are claiming they do which disputes your statement.


Apart from (as I pointed out earlier) my concerns about the number for Anthony Johnson, I totally agree. But the health risks of weight cutting are something that are totally independent of the particular weight divisions that exist. They are a by-product of the existence of weight divisions in and of themselves.

Whatever the weightclasses were, this trend would materialize.
But in this case in my opinion it becomes a pointless exercise that only serves to hurt the quality of fights and endanger fighter safety. I think you would see for the most part the exact same fighters fighting the exact same fighters just with more guys cutting weight.


I totally agree. But the chances of Carwin getting back to a place where he's walking around at 260 pounds seems pretty unlikely to me.

He's an older guy, and it's certainly possible that he could make the decision that the mass is not good for his game (I probably would, if I were him) but somehow I don't see him making that decision. Unless that Lesnar fight really woke something up in him.
Honestly I think the odds are actually better. I thought the Lesnar fight had to open his eyes to the fact that the additional muscle came with a significant price in his bodies ability to provide oxygen to those muscles. I fully expect that Carwin will come back much closer to his earlier UFC weight upon his return.
If it did, he absolutely could make 235. Also, I'm pretty sure he'd be smaller than Cain if he decided to start dropping weight.
I don't think we will see Carwin as low as 240 but I think seeing him back around that 260lb mark is the best fit for him as obviously like Mir his experiment with bulking up substantially failed.

Well, apart from looking at one case study (since Randy Couture is the king of anomalies), lets look at the history of the division.

Up until about 2002, you'd probably be right. After all, most of the heavyweight champions up to that point had been fighters who were around that 220 pound mark (Couture, Randleman, Smith, etc.) but the reality is that the UFC has had one undisputed champion under 240 pounds since Ricco Rodriguez won the title at UFC 32. (I double checked to make sure that Rodriguez was still over that weight at the time of the fight; he weighed in at 243).
But is it really necessary that the 230lbs heavyweights be competitive? For the most part LHW is in reach to the small HW's. They have other options but make a choice. If we lived in a world were weigh ins were immediately before the fights a split in the division may make sense but right now it accomplished little IMO.
It's obviously not impossible. Obviously, a little guy with great skills can beat a big ogre. The reality, though, is that there are very, very few successful heavyweights who are smaller and that, over the years, there has been a significant amount of growth in the size of those top heavyweights, and the need for that size in order to compete with those guys is significant.
The fact is that it isn't a growth in the size of top HW's as much as an increase in the quality of athlete we are seeing. To me though the question is more if some of these smaller HW's need to reevaluate there choice of weight class. Some may have to drop to LHW, some may have to bulk up to continue to compete but I believe fighters should be making better use of these weight classes instead of looking for a hand out weight class.

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