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post #9 of (permalink) Old 12-10-2010, 12:00 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
The Alves being at 195, GSP at 185 for there fight and the Rumble numbers for the Yoshida fight are straight from them. I see little reason for them to exagerate.
Again, you're missing a distinction here.

Johnson talks about "cutting from 220" in this interview in this interview, but he's talking about the weight that he loses over the course of training camp. It's clear from the context of the interview, and when you note that he's at 185 a week before the Koscheck fight.

I know pedialyte is great if your dehydrated I drink a bottle before I got to bed after drinking all night to avoid a hang over. (works great)
A lot of these guys are also taking fluids intravenously because its just not possible to drink that much.
I didn't think the size difference appeared that great at the weigh ins but I remember watching the fight being amazed at how much bigger Fitch looks. The guy is massive for a WW and appears to me to be getting into the Rumble size range.
I don't feel that way. I rewatched the bout. Again, it's a function of Fitch being taller and learner than the stockier Alves.

I was going off the numbers Johnson gave in a interview were he said he missed weight due to a failed experiment were he tried to cut from 220 and that he was 200 on the day of the weigh ins.
Like I said I am going off the numbers Johnson himself gave as a reason for his missing weight. Sounds incredibly dangerous and stupid but again I fail to see why he would lie.
This is why the notion that GSP regularly cuts from 195 seems patently ridiculous to me. Because a 30 pound weightcut attempt in one day on the part of Johnson hit a ceiling at 26 pounds.

Also, because Johnson is so much bigger than GSP.

Coleman was substantially older than Lesnar is and he only looked that terrible from the cut against Shogun. He looked bad in his other fights because well he is just plain old and beat up.
Yes, he is 10 years older. He's also not nearly starting from as far away as Lesnar is.

The thing is that you like many people look at the divsions as hard lines. There is nothing saying a MW has to weigh in at 185. Diego Sanchez could choose not to cut any weight and move up to MW and fight at as low as 171 pounds. You could have 171 pound Sanchez fight a guy like Nate Marquardt at MW. It would not be a fair fight but that would be due to Sanchez not using the available weight divisions and a fighters ability and option to cut weight to the fullest. I have little sympathy for a guy like Cheick Kongo who is a relatively small HW because if he chose to go that route he could be a large LHW.
Again, I don't think that Kongo can make 205. I don't think his body will allow him to do it.

If you want to argue lowering the HW weight cap in order to even the playing field by forcing the big guys to cut more weight than that is a different discussion entirely. As it stands many of these big guys are successful because of that size and strength advantage and without it there fights become a battle of skills and lets be honest most of them all not on the level of some of the smaller HW's and fighters in other divisions.
You'll get no argument here. I'm assuming that last clause is: "Let's be honest, most of them are not on the level of some of the smaller HW's..."

Mir has bulked up to the point he is not longer considered a small HW, at over 250lbs he is a decent sized HW. This is something some of these guys should consider. Your faulting the big HW's because the smaller guys are not taking full advantage of there options.
I have obviously never attempted it myself but there are fighters who are claiming they do which disputes your statement.
I've seen 155 pound grapplers submit 200+ pound behemoths. I've never seen a 155 pound grappler submit someone with a significant size advantage and a similar skillset (unless you count Garcia vs. Van Arsdale at ADCC, but that's a pretty serious stretch, too). There is a point at which, believe it or not, even a basic skill level allows for the undermining of superior technical skills.

The limitations of size are notable.

But in this case in my opinion it becomes a pointless exercise that only serves to hurt the quality of fights and endanger fighter safety. I think you would see for the most part the exact same fighters fighting the exact same fighters just with more guys cutting weight.
This is predicated on your point that (a) everyone can make weight and that (b) everyone who can make weight will continue to do it for as long as possible, which is what I'm trying to show is not correct

Honestly I think the odds are actually better. I thought the Lesnar fight had to open his eyes to the fact that the additional muscle came with a significant price in his bodies ability to provide oxygen to those muscles. I fully expect that Carwin will come back much closer to his earlier UFC weight upon his return.
I don't think we will see Carwin as low as 240 but I think seeing him back around that 260lb mark is the best fit for him as obviously like Mir his experiment with bulking up substantially failed.
I think that's probably the likeliest opportunity, too. But I'm not sure he can regain the all-around athleticism at this point, and I'm not sure he can get it.

But is it really necessary that the 230lbs heavyweights be competitive? For the most part LHW is in reach to the small HW's. They have other options but make a choice. If we lived in a world were weigh ins were immediately before the fights a split in the division may make sense but right now it accomplished little IMO.
Yes, it is necessary that 230-240 pound heavyweights remain relevant because, as we've seen with Brandon Vera (to name one) fighters do not always successfully translate their game

The fact is that it isn't a growth in the size of top HW's as much as an increase in the quality of athlete we are seeing. To me though the question is more if some of these smaller HW's need to reevaluate there choice of weight class. Some may have to drop to LHW, some may have to bulk up to continue to compete but I believe fighters should be making better use of these weight classes instead of looking for a hand out weight class.
Again, you're asserting that all of these guys can cut to lightheavyweight, and I'm not sure that they all can without jeopardizing their ability to perform.

It's not a "hand out weight class" for a group of fighters. A "hand out weight class" seems like something that's created for one fighter (like Nick Diaz or Gina Carano). Clearly, this isn't that.

If you create a weightclass that has a substantial number of competitive fighters, then isn't that, by virtue of having a lot of competitive fighters. Which, by the way, you argued it would, since you've argued that it wouldn't exclude any competitive heavyweights.

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