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Old 12-10-2010, 02:21 AM   #10 (permalink)
Toxic

 
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Again, you're missing a distinction here.

Johnson talks about "cutting from 220" in this interview in this interview, but he's talking about the weight that he loses over the course of training camp. It's clear from the context of the interview, and when you note that he's at 185 a week before the Koscheck fight.

That isn't the interview I was refering to, I will try to find it again but in it he was saying how he typically would have been 185 by Wednesday but when he fought Yoshida he was still 198 the night before weigh ins.

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I don't feel that way. I rewatched the bout. Again, it's a function of Fitch being taller and learner than the stockier Alves.
You could be right I still think that Fitch looked bigger but its all a matter of opinion since we don't know what they walked in at.

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This is why the notion that GSP regularly cuts from 195 seems patently ridiculous to me. Because a 30 pound weightcut attempt in one day on the part of Johnson hit a ceiling at 26 pounds.
I never said GSP cuts that in a day, he probably drops that over a number of days, I only said GSP said he walks into the cage at 185 typically and he said heading into the Hardy fight that due to bulking up he would walk in heavier that usual around that 190-195 mark.

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Also, because Johnson is so much bigger than GSP.
Its not just how much weight Johnson cuts but also the ridiculous way he cuts it.


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Yes, he is 10 years older. He's also not nearly starting from as far away as Lesnar is.
But age is definitely the biggest factor, Coleman claimed he was a mere 12 pounds off three weeks before he fought Couture. That is hardly a weight cut that should have drained him.

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Again, I don't think that Kongo can make 205. I don't think his body will allow him to do it.
Have to agree to disagree on that one.

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You'll get no argument here. I'm assuming that last clause is: "Let's be honest, most of them are not on the level of some of the smaller HW's..."
There not that was my point, without the size and strength advantage they don't leave much.

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I've seen 155 pound grapplers submit 200+ pound behemoths. I've never seen a 155 pound grappler submit someone with a significant size advantage and a similar skillset (unless you count Garcia vs. Van Arsdale at ADCC, but that's a pretty serious stretch, too). There is a point at which, believe it or not, even a basic skill level allows for the undermining of superior technical skills.

The limitations of size are notable.
Size does have limitations but we aren't throwing 200lb guys in with 265 pounders. We are only talking at most 50lbs considering a 280lb fighter taking on a 230lb fighter (who should be fighting at LHW). That is the maximum size difference we should see but as I said earlier I feel that the 230lb guys are not making the best use of there available options. I believe BJ Penn vs Jon Fitch will be just as lopsided size wise as Lesnar/Couture was but it is still considered fair.



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This is predicated on your point that (a) everyone can make weight and that (b) everyone who can make weight will continue to do it for as long as possible, which is what I'm trying to show is not correct
I am not implying that everyone could make the weight or that they would but your major players will. A guy like Lesnar who is marketable enough that he has the resources will make the weight. You will still have guys who don't have the nutritionists and coaching staff necessary that will remain at 265 but who wants to see Tim Hague vs Sean McCorkle for the HW title?

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I think that's probably the likeliest opportunity, too. But I'm not sure he can regain the all-around athleticism at this point, and I'm not sure he can get it.[/quote] I am not sure that athleticism was really ever there. He is just a big strong guy who hits incredibly hard and IMO thats it.


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Yes, it is necessary that 230-240 pound heavyweights remain relevant because, as we've seen with Brandon Vera (to name one) fighters do not always successfully translate their game
Brandon Vera looks as good as ever at 205 he is just fighting a higher caliber of opponent.


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Again, you're asserting that all of these guys can cut to lightheavyweight, and I'm not sure that they all can without jeopardizing their ability to perform.

It's not a "hand out weight class" for a group of fighters. A "hand out weight class" seems like something that's created for one fighter (like Nick Diaz or Gina Carano). Clearly, this isn't that.

If you create a weightclass that has a substantial number of competitive fighters, then isn't that, by virtue of having a lot of competitive fighters. Which, by the way, you argued it would, since you've argued that it wouldn't exclude any competitive heavyweights.
The cruiserweight division would have a lot of talent, my issue is the lack of depth it leaves at HW.
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