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post #9 of (permalink) Old 12-28-2010, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Again, I understand why Coker has said that he wants this bout to happen. But if I'm Scott Coker (I'm not, but let's just speak hypothetically for a second here) it's good to have a grudge match. It's less good to have my top welterweight lose to an unranked former welterweight.

It's actually worse to have MayheM loose, since it kills the argument they're trying to make that he should be a middleweight contender, which is an interesting argument given how competitive his fight was with Shields.

Scott Coker is not stupid (and I'm not saying that because I was pretending to be Scott Coker a second ago) so I assume he knows that this is a lose/lose situation for him in terms of hype for these two fighters that, at this point, he really needs to be bringing in the money for him.
I guess this comes down to what you believe to be a "loss". If Mayhem were to lose, I don't really see why he can't still be considered a contender. I mean Penn loss to Edgar, and went to WW where a ton of people believe that he is still a contender there.

Also, I think Coker is entertaining this fight more than people think. He even said that he was more interested in this fight than seeing Diaz/Daley.

I'm not going to defend Nick Diaz acting like a neanderthal. He knows that he's not the smartest guy, and he knows that his impulsive behavior pisses a lot of people off. These are realities of his career, and I think he's more than aware of them.

I think he probably should have been thinking of something else (what would my mother think? or somesuch) before attacking Miller. But it's not about behavior. It's about good fights.
Taking into account what occured, I think this is more of an issues about morals than careers. It isn't the same for everyone, but I will always place my morals before my career. Bottom line, if you attack someone like that, then the very very least that you can do is give them a real shot at you. Because in all honesty, it looks cowardly on Diaz's part as well.

And I want Ikuhisa Minowa to submit Brock Lesnar with a heelhook.

And I want to go into my room and find Jessica Alba laying in some seductive position on my bed.

And I want a pony.

But it'll never happen. We know that, and we know why.
Then this proves that although Diaz can fight well, he is still acting cowardly. That's it. If you insult someone and provoke them, in situations that they know they will not be harmed, and then refuse to actually fight them, that is the act of a coward at heart.

Not enough to make it happen. If Scott Coker wanted it badly, it'd happen. People seem to underestimate Scott Coker's power as a fight promoter and as a man who can convince fighters to do what he needs them to do to fill his pocket.
I don't underestimate him at all but it doesn't mean that he has 100% control of who fights who. It all comes down to the fighters signing the contract. Diaz would be completely stupid to not see the money that a fight like this would bring in if it happened.

There are too many other fights that are better for him than this one, for both Diaz and MayheM, to create the appropriate motivation. He wants to see this, for sure, because it'd be a solid payday. You know what's a better payday? To get Miller and Diaz on cards fighting opponents in their respective weight classes and building credibility.

I agree from a business standpoint. I am talking about the Diaz/Mayhem fight and the reason I have taken this stance is because the Gracie Camp keeps counter offering different weights than Mayhem wanted. I am pretty much saying that if they want this figh to happen, then go to Mayhem's weight, if not then shut up.

Strikeforce didn't get where it is, and hasn't stayed there for a substantial amount of time, for putting together events that don't have a long term outlook. They're meticulous about that. Look at the matchmaking for Josh Thomson and Gilbert Melendez over their respective careers, or the matchmaking for Cung Le, or even Nick Diaz.

Right but saying this could have no long term benefits whatsoever is pure speculation. Whoever wins, their stock will rise substantially. Diaz would have a win in the weight class above his natural weight. Or Mayhem would have a win over a champion thus reinforcing his contender status.

Not to mention that they copuld possibly line up a rematch down the road and another if they each take one of the fights. The money brough in for rivalry fights is very good as well as many viewers.

I'm not ignoring the legitimacy of the claim, but my point is this: there are better things for both Miller and Diaz to be doing. That's the analogy.
Any my point is that they can both go and do whatever they please. Diaz can go fight whoever, but the fact of the matter is that he is still hung up on this as well. I wouldn't care if he said no to the fight indefinitely. But he needs to stop making it a point to stir the pot if he has no intentions of actually acting on any of it.

Great, and after Diaz vs. Miller part one and (at least) part two, what do you do with the current welterweight champion, who has already lost much of his credibility for losing the trilogy and hasn't defended his title in six months? Or if Diaz wins, what do you do with Miller, who you've basically borrowed from Dream on the basis of making him a credible middleweight, and have officially screwed that possibility up by letting him lose to a fighter much smaller than him with essentially no credibility in the middleweight division?
This is fighting, and there will always be a loser. Especially at this level when they are constantly tring to build contenders, fighters are going to rise and fall. It is part of the business. I don't think that this is any reason for strikeforce to not try and make this fight happen. A fight that the fans are calling for is a good fight for business.

If Mayhem loses, then he will have to work his way back to contender status. This is what happens everytime a contender loses.

If Diaz loses, I don't see how he loses credibility in the WW division. He will still be the champ and if he can still defend that title, then I don't see what difference it really makes that he can't win in a weight division higher than his own.

Before BJ Penn lost his title to Frankie Edgar, he had 4 losses at weight classes higher than his own, yet people still thought of him as one of the most (if not the most) dominant LW champs of all time. This same logic can be applied to Diaz if he were to lose this bout.

I'm not saying there isn't money to be made here. We all know that great grudge matches, even when drawn out way too much, make great money. But here's the problem: these are guys who are trying to do things in their career that are totally unrelated to this grudge match.

While this is true, these two fighters are still spending a lot of time thinking and talking about each other. So it isn't like they are making this go away. Mayhem and Nick are both continually stirring the pot.

There are grudge matches that are natural and hugely beneficial for the careers of the involved fighters (Ken Shamrock vs. Royce Gracie; Shamrock vs. Dan Severn; Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes) and then there are grudge matches between fighters who are still trying to maintain relevance (Tito Ortiz vs. Ken Shamrock).

This isn't one of those. This is a fight that distracts from what these guys should be doing with their careers. Both of these guys are relevant, and should have to fight like they are relevant: fight contenders in their respective weightclasses and try to establish top ten status.

So you are saying that if Nick wins at MW that it won't benefit him in his career. And also that if Mayhem gets a win over the WW champ that it won't benefit him either?

There is a benefit for either fighter.
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