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Defense vs knife + hold?

8K views 36 replies 6 participants last post by  SelfDefense 
#1 ·
Hello,

I am a brown belt Ju Jitsuka and have been training Ju Jitsu for six years now.

I would like to know what could be done against this attack:

- attacker is standing in front of you, very close. He is threatening you by holding the right collar of your jacket with his left hand (the usual grab) and with his right hand he is holding his knife against your middle (waist/belly button area).

Today my sensei (8th dan) and us have tried to come up with something against that, but it seems very difficult to have a chance against this threat. This is because the guy with a knife is very flexible.

What he attacker can do is:

- let go of the collar grab and go over your defending arm with a stabbing knife
- defend with his left arm all the time while having his knife ready for stabbing in his right hand
- shake you back and forth with his left arm grabbing your collar while he has a good chance of keep stabbing you with the right hand

So.. I don't know.

Any ideas against this threat are welcome.
If anyone wishes pictures, I can upload some drawings of this threat.

Thank you,

--
SelfDefense
 
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#5 ·
I guess it depends on why he has you in that position in the first place, if he has both hands in use and is confident he is in control he wont protect his face.It also kinda boils down to is he willing to stick you, If he has no problem cutting you, you are better off making a move, if he is bluffing he probably wont cut you no matter what..
I assume this is just a hypothetical with no good answer, there are knife fighting/self defence videos that probaby have better answers from people who have been in that situation.. I have never been in that exact spot so I cant say for sure... Good luck though...:thumb02:
 
#6 ·
First of all, there is more to that knife defense issue than you could ever get from people in the internet, so you will at best get a small idea of what you could do or how you could train.

I've posted something about knife confrontation in another thread.

So, concerning your premises (I hope I've got a correct picture of the situation in my mind as I'm not a native speaker): If you can't run (which should be your primary approach in all weapon encounters) do as the others already have told - give him what he wants. Neither your wallet nor your iPod is worth your life! Most people underestimate how dangerous a knife can be and what it can do to them. They usually know at worst a cut in their finger with a kitchen knife which slipped while preparing their meal, but this is nothing compared to an intentional knife attack. An acquaintance of a very good friend of mine got stabbed not long ago with a knife and was in coma for more than a month, but at least was lucky enough to survive (the attacker missed his heart by half an inch). In the following videos you can get an idea of what might happen to your body if someone attacks you with a knife.




So again, if you can't run away, give him your money, mobile, iPad what ever IF it looks like that that's what he is after. There is a pretty good chance that he won't harm you if he didn't attack you in the first place, but only threatened you to give him your stuff. Of course that will never be a 100% chance and you need some good empathy to judge how he will react after you've given him what he wanted.

IF however you have the strong feeling that he's seriously going to harm you even if you do what he asks - then you must defend yourself at full force. Grab his knife arm with BOTH of your hands. I say at forearm at elbow level, because that part he can't move as fast as his hands, so it will be harder for him to avoid to get grabbed. Going for his wrist however will give you more control over where the knife actually is. Try out in training what is most comfortable for you. There are people who don't recommend to go with both your hands, using the argument that he would attack you with your free hand, but arguments and also my own experience strongly advocates using both your hands on the attackers knife arm.
- The knife is the biggest threat in that moment! Using only one hand on the knife arm and your second hand on his other arm will not only put a smaller force against the biggest threat, but most likely have you also using your strong hand (right) against his weak hand (left) and your weak hand (left) against hist strong hand (right) which makes it easier for him to keep his knife free and attack you with it.
- Someone who is not trained in knife fighting will usually be absolutely focused only on his knife. That means that he probably won't really attack you with his free hand, but rather go with it for your grabbing arms to get his knife free. You can try that out in training.

My advises here are for a training against attackers who are not highly trained in knife fighting. Against those who are, there is not much you can do in an encounter and even less you could learn from the internet. To raise your chances from zero to minimal, you will have to train with people specialized on knife fighting.

So when you have control over his knife arm you want to stomp kick on his leg, preferable his knee and inflict as much damage as you can so he won't be able to follow you when you run away if you have the possibility.

Jon Fitch does pretty well in controlling the knife arm of his opponent in this clip:


You may also try to get a copy of Jim Wagner's reality based personal protection knife defense DVD. A bigger part in the end of it is advertisement for his knife, but the training instructions part before that is pretty good.

If you can afford one, get a shock knife like in the Fitch video for your training. It lets you know every mistake you do while you practice. But you should also work with a color marker knife (a marker pen does also) and a white shirt. With that you can evaluate you training afterwards. And ask your trainer to invite some acknowledged knife fighting instructors to give seminars at your gym.


Always keep in mind that in a knife attack encounter there is NO safe way. No matter what you do, there is ALWAYS the chance that you get hurt. All your training and actions are about minimizing the risks for you and to get as little harmed out of the situation as possible. So, to sum it up:
- First priority is to run away
- If that's not possible, give your money, mobile etc.
- If the attacker is going to attack you no matter what you do, control his knife arm and inflict as much damage as you can and run away at the best opportunity
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thank you for sharing, Voiceless.

I have a few questions:
"So when you have control over his knife arm you want to stomp kick on his leg, preferable his knee and inflict as much damage as you can so he won't be able to follow you when you run away if you have the possibility."

--> What about him having pumped up adrenaline so he could still run after me, not feeling the pain? Or he could be a ferocious maniac who won't give up running after his victim until he has him?

About the shock knife, sorry but I am not that insane to go get such a weapon. I will keep training with the rounded out 'butter' knife (full flexible rubber. It bends very easily, you know the type). This way you can go full power with the knife while not being afraid to hurt the other, since knife fights happen at full speed usually. I am not going to buy a knife.

The acknowledged knife fighting instructors? I doubt they live in Europe or would do the hassle to come over to our tiny dojo. I bet they would cost a lot of money to get in.

Nevertheless, thanks for sharing.
 
#8 ·
Thank you for sharing, Voiceless.

I have a few questions:
"So when you have control over his knife arm you want to stomp kick on his leg, preferable his knee and inflict as much damage as you can so he won't be able to follow you when you run away if you have the possibility."

--> What about him having pumped up adrenaline so he could still run after me, not feeling the pain? Or he could be a ferocious maniac who won't give up running after his victim until he has him?
You will always have that problem and as I said there is NO 100% safe way and there is always the possibility that you get hurt, in particular if the attacker actually IS stronger than you. But concerning the running of him after you, that why you should inflict damage and attack his knee or ankle, because damage there does not only causes pain, but reduces the function of the joints. Without those joints working functionally any more he just CAN'T run after you, even though he would overcome the pain due to adrenaline.

About the shock knife, sorry but I am not that insane to go get such a weapon. I will keep training with the rounded out 'butter' knife (full flexible rubber. It bends very easily, you know the type). This way you can go full power with the knife while not being afraid to hurt the other, since knife fights happen at full speed usually. I am not going to buy a knife.
The shock knife is not really a "weapon", it's a training device that simulates a knife. You can inform yourself about it on their website. But as I wrote, I don't recommend only a single knife training device, but several like shock knife to get instant cutting feedback, marker knifes for evaluation and rubber knifes.

The acknowledged knife fighting instructors? I doubt they live in Europe or would do the hassle to come over to our tiny dojo. I bet they would cost a lot of money to get in.
In Europe (more precise in Germany) you could find Uli Weidl who is Europe chief instructor of Pekiti Tirsia Kali under Leo Gaje who is one of the (maybe the) main instructors in knife fighting for the Philippine army.
 
#9 ·
Voiceless, what do you think of the following scenarios:

1) Standing in front of a knife guy, pushing yourself off of him (chest), take a big step (3 ft) and face opposite direction, running moderately and controlled. If he tries to run after you and you have created enough distance, you will simply elephant-stomp him in the stomach (small elephants are known to give sort of a backwards kick and it can be deadly). In other words, a straight backwards kick. Why this approach? Well, our sensei has developed this new method. He says "this way, the attacker can't get close enough to me. He can't grab me because my leg will be kicking him and he will cripple to the floor from the kick. He would have to get close enough to be able to grab me, but he can't, because my leg is protecting me with the backwards kick." This approach worked for one of our club members who got ran after by a drunk guy. He kicked him in the stomach with the backward kick and they had to carry the guy away back to the bar. Of course this works for a drunk, fighting-ignorant guy, but for a vicious trained maniac.. I doubt it. This is why our sensei and us are always open to opinions from the outside. Do you think this would be a good approach? My opinion is that there might be a problem with the guy cutting one of your leg arteries.. I don't know.

2) You are standing in front of the knife attacker and just all of a sudden, you run backwards, but with fast great steps, still facing him. After those steps you run the hell away. Supposedly the attacker would be that dumb that he would be surprised for that second that you take steps back. He would be like "huh?" in his mind and that would supposedly be enough for you to get the hell away.

So, let me know what you think about these approaches.

Thanks
 
#11 ·
Voiceless, what do you think of the following scenarios:

1) Standing in front of a knife guy, pushing yourself off of him (chest), take a big step (3 ft) and face opposite direction, running moderately and controlled. If he tries to run after you and you have created enough distance, you will simply elephant-stomp him in the stomach (small elephants are known to give sort of a backwards kick and it can be deadly). In other words, a straight backwards kick. Why this approach? Well, our sensei has developed this new method. He says "this way, the attacker can't get close enough to me. He can't grab me because my leg will be kicking him and he will cripple to the floor from the kick. He would have to get close enough to be able to grab me, but he can't, because my leg is protecting me with the backwards kick." This approach worked for one of our club members who got ran after by a drunk guy. He kicked him in the stomach with the backward kick and they had to carry the guy away back to the bar. Of course this works for a drunk, fighting-ignorant guy, but for a vicious trained maniac.. I doubt it. This is why our sensei and us are always open to opinions from the outside. Do you think this would be a good approach? My opinion is that there might be a problem with the guy cutting one of your leg arteries.. I don't know.
I'm not quite sure what kind of kick you mean, maybe something like this one:


In general my advice would be if you've reached "If he tries to run after you and you have created enough distance,": Keep on running. If you have distance, he can't harm you, so why close the distance again¿ I recommend rather to work on widening the distance, bring obstacles (cars, fences, trash cans, houses etc.) between you and the attacker.

Now that of course depends also from the situation. Other than in a competitive sportive fight in a self defensive situation the objectives between those involved differ. While in a sportive fight both opponents want to overcome the other guy an win the fight, in a self defensive situation the victims primary objective is to stay unharmed while the attacker(s) want(s) to harm the victim and stay unharmed himself. Surviving a life threatening situation is usually a bigger motivator than the prospect of harming someone (unless it's needed to survive yourself). So with somewhat equal athletic skills, the victim will mentally be able to run faster and longer than the attacker. If however you have the feeling that the attacker is faster and has better cardio and would not give up before you gas out, then you should do something before as long as you're still able.

That back kick is somewhat problematic, because if you miss he is in your back and you don't have your arms ready to defend yourself. And as you mentioned there is the possibility of him cutting your leg arteries. So, facing him rather try to kick him in the groin as you would try to drive your shin through his pelvic bone.

But again, that all depends on the situation.

2) You are standing in front of the knife attacker and just all of a sudden, you run backwards, but with fast great steps, still facing him. After those steps you run the hell away. Supposedly the attacker would be that dumb that he would be surprised for that second that you take steps back. He would be like "huh?" in his mind and that would supposedly be enough for you to get the hell away.
I would rather disadvise running backwards. You'd be slower than him running forwards (if he doesn't go "huh?") and you wouldn't see any obstacles you could stumble over.
 
#10 ·
I'd just avoid this situation. Unless you're in a crowded room etc it's going to be hard for a guy to get me in this situation. But let's assume I'm there, two things come to mind immediately 1. Control his knife hand, break his hold with headbutts or right hooks, push off him pull firearm and shoot until he dies. 2. Control knife hand, pull firearm with other hand and fire close range. If I find myself in this situation without a firearm I'd probably fight for control of the knife, 1st thing would be to control the knife, punches, groin strikes, eye gouges if I could get the knife all the way to the side I'd try to take the guy down and if I got him down that's where I'd kill him and if not I'd chase his ass down and end him where ever. End of the day he pulled a knife on me and he's gotta die. I can't help but think next time it would be my wife and child with that knife on them or my mom. Don't get me wrong I'll give a guy a ride, hot meal and 20$ if asked but if he wants to take 5$ by force that's the only way he'll take it from me.

But for everyone else who is not so arrogant and blinded by anger, I'd say always cooperate and give him your stuff, and if they aren't going to let you go then run. An attacker with a knife is a lot more dangerous than a normal attacker. The truth is that an attacker with a knife will probably kill you in a fight.
 
#13 ·
Don't get me wrong I'll give a guy a ride, hot meal and 20$ if asked
I hope you're a good cook as I understand that as an invitation. :thumb02:

[...]I don't have the heart or spirit to gouge someone in the eyes. I just think that's cruel.[...]
You should get used to the idea. I don't mean that you should aim to cripple or kill the attacker, but you should accept that it could happen to him. To be precise you need a certain mindset to be able to defend yourself. Without the mindset to do what is necessary all your training won't help you in a critical situation. You shouldn't restrict yourself in the measures to stay unharmed. Do what is necessary. If running away is possible - fine, do so. If buying the attacker a beer helps to calm him down - fine, do so. If he'd be intimidated when you told him that you'd kick his ass - then do so. But if those non-physical methods don't work you'll have to get physical to stay unharmed and if the attacker takes permanent damage, so be it. The measures and force needed to stop the attack depend on the situation. I'm not talking about revenge, so if you're sure that you definitely stopped his attack and he won't start again, then it's ok to go away and call the police.
 
#12 ·
xeberus, I'm catholic. I don't kill people. Also, I'm not a murderer/criminal. I'm a good citizen of society. If you're defending you're not supposed to kill. Firearms are illegal in a particular part of Europe. Also, I would never buy one. For example, the whole reason behind karate is that farmers were not allowed to use weapons and thus had to defend themselves with their only weapons.. their hands. Their empty hands. Their hands without tools. Kara te. I don't have the heart or spirit to gouge someone in the eyes. I just think that's cruel.

Yes, I understand if the other person is trying to kill you, but that would be extremely rare. Generally, one should just watch out in life and not get in such trouble.

I prefer to stay away from psychopaths (people who kill or even think about it). Sorry to say that, but that's how it is. It actually makes me sick to read what you wrote. I don't know what kind of education you had or life, but it was probably not a good one. I'm glad I'm not crazy like some people out there. I think you maybe had some serious trauma's in life, otherwise you would not think this way (which is: abnormal).

You have a wife and child?! You should be ashamed of your mind and yourself.

I am not an angry person, luckily. I'm very peaceful.
Good thing there are not many maniacs out there with a knife (that is - those who actually mean to kill you).

Over and out.
 
#14 ·
I like that at the start, it's funny to me because almost all murder and violent crime in my country are commuted by Christians/Catholics. I am also not a criminal, and my record is clean.

I am a perfect example of why weapons are essential in a fight. I say that because I'm fit, very athletic and I've been in boxing/kickboxing or bjj for the past decade and I still carry a gun because against multiple attackers or a guy with a weapon it's a flip of the coin I lose a lot.

You talk about fighting as if it's cruel? Have you ever been in a fight? It's scary, it's brutal, violent, animalistic. It's life or death, do whatever it takes to come out a head, it's not a game, it's a "hey am I going to wake up tomorrow, am I going to be diminished for life etc". I'm sorry if it's me that had to tell you that's what fighting is, it's not a pretty thing.

Then you stay away from everyone? :p A police officer once told me those who know they will kill to survive, survive, those who wait til the moment die. By your definition all police, military forces and most people are psychopaths. The way you are talking about this is childish.

I will have you know I'm very academically accomplished, I have my MBA for a quality university and I've been published in a psychology journal for my work on identifying missing children who have aged.

The way I think is normal or pretty close to it, I'm not ashamed I would kill to protect myself or my family, maybe you should he that you wouldn't.
 
#15 · (Edited)
xeberus, while not a reason to have a killer mindset, I understand somewhat more your defensive mindset - i.e. you come from a dangerous neighbourhood. I come from a neighbourhood where children smile and respect the rules and.. well basically it's happy town. About education I was referring to parental education.

There are a lot of knife attacks here too (in fact, 100.000 knifing cases in a single community - I don't understand that even).

I suppose you live in a country where it's allowed to carry firearms or you can even buy one. Where I live? Hah. Not even in the nearest 3000 miles. It's just plain forbidden and not sold/fabricated. Strongly against the local law.

I've been in a small fight but that wasn't a fight anyway because all the attacker did was lay on top of me and miss a hit next to my face. So yeah. No, I don't actually provoke fights so I'm happy I have never been in one. It also depends on the type of fight: "Hey! You stole my Magic cards!!!". Haha. Fights can be brutal if they contain psychos. However in general between normal people, the fight lasts at most 30 seconds and the other guy cools down quickly.

You would have to be really sick or disturbed to be brutal in a fight. It's mostly not life or death.. again, depends on the situation. Very rare over here, but I guess you live in a violent neighbourhood.

Police is not allowed to kill anyone. They shoot the leg to disable the attacker. They use pepper spray/gas. Over here the police politely asks the criminal if he would like to a/b or 'stop what he is doing'. They are never going to even touch the criminal unless he starts to run away or something - even then, they don't run after him. They get i their car and report to headquarters. That's how police job is done - not like crazy Americans..
 
#16 ·
@voice

Well since my divorce my culinary skills have grown immensely. :)

@Self Defense

Well as I said my mindset is common and nothing to be ashamed of. I grew up in a wealthy home, gated community and a quality school. My parents are wealthy I am not. Well as long as we're talking about some arbitrary education that can't be measured I suppose I won't hold that against you.

Look, I've let you insult me over and over but there is no need to be hostile. Just because we have shared different experiences does not mean we cannot be civil or get along.

Is it that frightening that I'm the average guy? In America when a reasonable person would feel that their life was in mortal danger it becomes legal to kill. If I get into a fight with someone, I would stop when they were done. Likewise I've had someone yell out "stop stop" in a fight and that was it. Honorable fight is an honorable fight, when someone attacks me with a deadly weapon it's over and it's life or death.
 
#17 ·
Well, that is in America, but not in Europe.

As a Ju Jitsuka in the budo ground and a practicioner of self defense, honor doesn't exist for me. It's about just being able to defend. I don't have that big of an ego to have 'honor'. It's also not in the right context, i.e. that one of fighting. If you have to defend, you defend. The streets. You don't need honor. There is no medal.

If one can go out at reasonable hours and not later than midnight and one chooses to be peaceful, I think it should be possible to live a peaceful life.
 
#18 ·
Well I've spent a lot of time in europe, street fighting is prevalent there as well.

How I used the word "honor" could be interchanged with "mercy", a person without this "honor" is more vicious than myself. Not hurting someone you don't need to hurt requires no medal, it's something a decent person just does.

I live a relatively peaceful life.
 
#19 ·
Completly agree with Xeb on this. I had a great childhood with awesome parents. I'm a member of the U.S. Armed Forces and I will defend myself at any means. I carry a gun because I follow the law and I know there are people out there who do not. Now if a guy came up to me and punched me in the mouth I wont pull my pistol and turn his head into a pink mist. I will show him the proper way to punch someone in the mouth. Just because you (Selfdefense)have this vision of the place you live in has children laughing and playing in the streets all 50s style does not mean its like that everywhere.

You insult Xeb for speaking his mind. You judged him. Thats pretty jacked up. Your 1 "fight" the guy layed on top of you. The last non MMA fight I was in a guy smashed a beer bottle on my head and I put him in the hospital. Ive been jumped by 7 guys. You name it it's pretty much happened to me except being stabbed or shot. Ive had people come at me with a knife though. You do what you do to survive. So before you say someone "makes you sick" maybe you should do a self check. Or end up in a sewer somewhere.
 
#22 ·
Haha I just have one thing to say: Americans are insane.
"Look at me I am a member of the U.S. Forces, yeehaw! I have a gun! Yeehaw!"
Can't get any more ******* than that.

If you have had that many situations for people attacking you, then there is a reason for that, G Land. Muhahah. ;)
Your 7 guys story doesn't cut the trick with anyone. Everyone knows it's impossible to win from even three guys. ;)
Two guys grab your arms, two guys grab your legs. What are you going to do then? That's right. You can't do anything.
Oh and 'the law' - typically said by someone who doesn't know any law. There is no 'the law'. There are different kinds of laws.

Tsk tsk, such aggressive people here. Just because someone smashes a beer bottle on your head doesn't mean you have to beat him. You can just restrain him for him to say "stop, you're hurting me". I understand though. Many people here have some sort of past trauma that makes them aggressive.

I only admire those who are truly soft. ^^
Or should I say, normal people.
People with no aggression or anger.
Lighten up guys.

I say whatever I want. Nyahaha.
Anyways, time to go relax.
Cool story bro.


No past traumas. Did I say I came out on top of the 7-1 jump? No I got my ass kicked but I was never knocked out or down. You little idea of each grabbing a limb is way off. Instead of them grabbing an arm or leg they made a fist and went to work. OOO and you know the "reason" behind this attack? No you don't again you judge some one. I was breaking up a fight. I was trying to keep the peace.

I could care less if you "admire soft people" good for you. How about you go back to your "dohjo" and practice wrist locks with the rest of the people who live in your dream world:sarcastic12:
 
#24 ·
No we dont its Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu They try to teach us some stuff that could possibly keep us alive. Not some shitty place that charges way too much to tech people how to properly get stabbed in the gut .....so yall do practice wrist locks!!! I knew it lolz

 
#25 ·
You don't even know the meaning of the word 'Ju'. lol.
That's funny. Someone who practices self defense and doesn't know about that word. Besides, Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is mostly ground work. It's not because we practice ju jitsu that we keep it just limited to techniques. We also try to learn new ways to defend ourselves from realistic attacks.

Hence why I started this thread. That attack is one of them. It is realistic that someone would come up to you, grab your collar, put a knife to your body and ask: "Give me your money".
 
#28 ·
Real tough guy making fun of soldiers and my friend over the Internet. You want to know how defend against an attacker with a knife? You wouldn't, a guy like you against an attacker would be like a small child against a pride of lions. That being said I hope the biggest, most badass, gay rapist in Europe stumbles upon you alone in an alley. You'd be trying your McDojo type of defense all the way until he put his **** in your ***. I can see the headlines now "Little bitch and Internet tough guy brutally sodomized". All levity aside if a guy like me or g_land wanted your money or your life there's nothing you could do about it, you wouldn't have a chance, not one goddamn shot in hell.

 
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#30 ·
Real tough guy making fun of soldiers and my friend over the Internet. You want to know how defend against an attacker with a knife? You wouldn't, a guy like you against an attacker would be like a small child against a pride of lions. That being said I hope the biggest, most badass, gay rapist in Europe stumbles upon you alone in an alley. You'd be trying your McDojo type of defense all the way until he put his **** in your ***. I can see the headlines now "Little bitch and Internet tough guy brutally sodomized". All levity aside if a guy like me or g_land wanted your money or your life there's nothing you could do about it, you wouldn't have a chance, not one goddamn shot in hell.


Haha it seems our new friend doesnt want to hear the truth
 
#37 · (Edited)
Voiceless, indeed might fall unlucky. Though, what about the backwards roll that they teach you in Judo, or the fall break (smack hands on floor 45°) for that matter? Not to mention that a self defense practitioner should always keep in mind to keep his head tucked in to avoid it to slam on concrete and get a whiplash? Of course I understand if really surprised and not that trained, one would not remember that reflex. I suppose one has to train these reflexes over and over frequently.

A guy in my club is very flexible on that ground. If he gets pushed unexpectedly he immediately falls to the floor and does his roll. Don't know if that would work for real though. Concrete is not that soft.

I have asked some people about 'intentionally wanting to kill someone' and they said that there has to be something wrong in your mind to want to do such a thing. I don't think killing someone is necessary even if that person is trying to kill you. A person does not only stop when killed. If a person is unconscious, that is sufficient. I think this is mostly the reason why military defense guys train to beat the crap out of the other guy asap and then restrain him or something else. Killing? Maybe in a war.
Killing is just inhumane.

//Edit: I have concluded that there are no one-answer solutions to getting out of a specific fight situation. There are too many factors that play a role - location, surroundings, situation, etc. So yeah in the end you do what you can do to end the fight as quickly as possible.
 
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