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post #1 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2011, 03:56 PM Thread Starter
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Does God Exist? Christian vs Atheist debate

I know that debates on religion tend to get heated (They get heated) but this a debate among friends first. Please, stray away from personal insults and attacks.

Please read the rules here:
And guidelines here:

This debate falls under the category of normal debate so any and all are welcome to chime in.

So, without further nonsense, on to the debate!

Does God Exist?

"1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. 2 The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause." Quote taken from Dr. William Lane Craig.

Did the universe have a beginning, or has it just always been?

"The essence of the big bang cosmology is an expanding universe. The redshift of the light from galaxies is proportional to their distance (as inferred from brightness). No cause of galaxy redshift other than a velocity away from the observer was considered plausible, so Hubble's result was taken to mean that, the farther away from us a galaxy is, the faster it moves away from us. Hence, the overall universe had to be expanding." Quote taken from:

Let me start with the cosmological argument. There are many good reasons why the universe began to exist. Philosophically, the thought of an infinite past seems pretty unrealistic. If the universe never began to exist, that would mean the the number of past events will in our universe are infinite. But mathematicians recognize that the existence of an actual infinite number leads to self contradictions. For example, what is infinity minus infinity? Get the point? This shows that infinity is just an idea in your mind, not something that exists in reality. What this also shows is that the number of past events in the universe is finite, therefore the series of past events can't go on forever, which means the universe must have begun to exist. Which is where the big bang comes in.
What makes the big bang so interesting is that is represents the origin of the universe from literally nothing. For all matter and energy, space and time all came in to being at the big bang. I think this puts the atheist in an awkward position, because as an atheist you have to believe that the universe came from nothing, by nothing. But surely that doesn't make sense, since out of nothing nothing comes. So why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? Where did it come from? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.

Now, as the cause of space and time, this being must be an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being of unfathomable power. Moreover, it must be personal as well. Why? Because the cause must be beyond time and space. Therefore it cannot be physical or material.

There are only 2 kinds of things that fit this description. Either an abstract object, like numbers, or else a personal mind. But abstract objects can't cause anything, therefore it follows that the cause of the universe is a transcended, intelligent mind. Therefore the cosmological argument gives us a creator of the universe.

Another argument is the moral argument. If God doesn't exist, than objective moral values Also don't exist. By objective moral values I mean moral values which are valid and binding whether we believe in them or not. Many theist and atheist agree that if God doesn't exist, than moral values are not objective in this way. Michael Ruse (Philosopher of biology) once said "Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction and any deeper meaning is illusory." Like Professor Ruse I just don't see how in the absence of God, the morality that has emerged among these imperfectly evolved primates known as humans is objective. For example, without objective moral values, acts such as **** and murder only prove to be socially taboo, but not truly immoral since we morality itself is nonexistent without God. On the atheist view there is nothing really WRONG with **** and murder.

But the problem is, objective moral values DO exist and deep down we all know it. Actions like **** and murder aren't just socially unacceptable behavior they are moral abominations. Somethings at least are really wrong. Therefore, logically it leads to conclusion that God exists.

I'll end the OP on this note. Rather than attacking straw man, I'll see what awaits me in the rebuttals.

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