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post #2 of (permalink) Old 08-22-2011, 04:57 PM
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I will take each point as they come, to keep it all neat and organized.

"1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. 2 The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause." Quote taken from Dr. William Lane Craig.

Did the universe have a beginning, or has it just always been?

"The essence of the big bang cosmology is an expanding universe. The redshift of the light from galaxies is proportional to their distance (as inferred from brightness). No cause of galaxy redshift other than a velocity away from the observer was considered plausible, so Hubble's result was taken to mean that, the farther away from us a galaxy is, the faster it moves away from us. Hence, the overall universe had to be expanding." Quote taken from:

Let me start with the cosmological argument. There are many good reasons why the universe began to exist. Philosophically, the thought of an infinite past seems pretty unrealistic. If the universe never began to exist, that would mean the the number of past events will in our universe are infinite. But mathematicians recognize that the existence of an actual infinite number leads to self contradictions. For example, what is infinity minus infinity? Get the point? This shows that infinity is just an idea in your mind, not something that exists in reality. What this also shows is that the number of past events in the universe is finite, therefore the series of past events can't go on forever, which means the universe must have begun to exist. Which is where the big bang comes in.
What makes the big bang so interesting is that is represents the origin of the universe from literally nothing. For all matter and energy, space and time all came in to being at the big bang. I think this puts the atheist in an awkward position, because as an atheist you have to believe that the universe came from nothing, by nothing. But surely that doesn't make sense, since out of nothing nothing comes. So why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? Where did it come from? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.

Now, as the cause of space and time, this being must be an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being of unfathomable power. Moreover, it must be personal as well. Why? Because the cause must be beyond time and space. Therefore it cannot be physical or material.

There are only 2 kinds of things that fit this description. Either an abstract object, like numbers, or else a personal mind. But abstract objects can't cause anything, therefore it follows that the cause of the universe is a transcended, intelligent mind. Therefore the cosmological argument gives us a creator of the universe.
If everything that exists must be created/had a cause, then that means God himself must have been created/have a cause.

A common example used by theists (not saying you are using it exactly, but it helps get my point across) is the watchmaker analogy.

"If you find a watch on the road and pick it up, you instantly realize that this watch must have been created. Complex things cannot exist without a creator to design it".

This is very, very easy to debunk. If complex things require a creator/cause, and if God is far more complex than a watch or humans or anything we know of, then that means God must have been created by an even more complex being, and that that being must have been created by an even greater complex being, and so on and so forth.

The argument that something cannot come from nothing is also not correct. We have observed many times using quantum theory and mechanics, of particles and other matter popping into existence without creation.

There is also a notable phenomenon observed in quantum mechanics. Particles composed of quarks such as protons, neutrons, positrons, etc have been observed popping into existence from nowhere and leaving again just as fast. Such particles “appear” in a vacuum where no other matter or energy exists. At the quantum level, even empty space is not truly empty but is seething with activity; particles are constantly popping in and out of existence everywhere. In pair creation, a particle and its antimatter partner seem to “appear” (see Bosons). This is cutting edge quantum mechanics research. The Large Hadron Collider in Switzlerand was built and is just recently up and running in the search for the Higgs-Boson particle.

The question of "why does this happen?" has yet to be answered, and may never be answered, but that does not mean that there is a being that created it, it just means given our level of technology at this point, we can only know so much. Back when the bible was written, people thought the world was flat, that disease/illness was caused by demonic possession, etc.

Just because we don't 'yet' have the answers to why, doesn't mean we won't someday, but we generally do have the answers as to "how".

As a side note - you're a Christian. The bible says the universe is 6,000 years old. That is what your God claims. It is a fact, however, that the universe is around 13 billion years old, and earth itself is no less than 4.5 billion years old. This is not a theory, this is a scientific fact.

Another argument is the moral argument. If God doesn't exist, than objective moral values Also don't exist. By objective moral values I mean moral values which are valid and binding whether we believe in them or not. Many theist and atheist agree that if God doesn't exist, than moral values are not objective in this way. Michael Ruse (Philosopher of biology) once said "Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction and any deeper meaning is illusory." Like Professor Ruse I just don't see how in the absence of God, the morality that has emerged among these imperfectly evolved primates known as humans is objective. For example, without objective moral values, acts such as **** and murder only prove to be socially taboo, but not truly immoral since we morality itself is nonexistent without God. On the atheist view there is nothing really WRONG with **** and murder.

But the problem is, objective moral values DO exist and deep down we all know it. Actions like **** and murder aren't just socially unacceptable behavior they are moral abominations. Somethings at least are really wrong. Therefore, logically it leads to conclusion that God exists.
This is actually a lot easier to answer than the previous argument for the case of God.

I'm going to base this off the Christian theology, as that's what you are debating as and that is the God that you believe in.

The bible says that both slavery, murder, and **** are all condoned and acceptable.

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way
-Leviticus 25:44-46

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment
- Zechariah 14:1-2

He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.- Exodus 21:15
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:17
The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead - Exodus 12:29-30
If the bible is a representation of moral behavior, then the bible is quite simply the most evil moral rule book for moral behavior known to man.

Back in our early years, there was a lot more acts of ****, murder, slavery, etc, and if we all have a moral code that these things are "wrong" built within us, then why did, for the vast majority of our race, accept and willingly take part in the acts of such things as ****, murder, slavery?

The reason why we don't do these things as much now and have laws against is, is because of the evolution of our society. It is by secular means that we have grown. As we have advanced in technology, science, and sociability, we have step by step removed such things from our civilizations. It is by secular means over thousands of years that we have evolved our society/morals to what they are now.

If you are talking about a different set of morals, you will have to explain them, as I am unaware of any morals outside of the the normal human morals that we take part in.
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