Originally Posted by M.C
I will take each point as they come, to keep it all neat and organized.
If everything that exists must be created/had a cause, then that means God himself must have been created/have a cause.
A common example used by theists (not saying you are using it exactly, but it helps get my point across) is the watchmaker analogy.
"If you find a watch on the road and pick it up, you instantly realize that this watch must have been created. Complex things cannot exist without a creator to design it".
This is very, very easy to debunk. If complex things require a creator/cause, and if God is far more complex than a watch or humans or anything we know of, then that means God must have been created by an even more complex being, and that that being must have been created by an even greater complex being, and so on and so forth.
That would be true if God existed within the parameters of time. God doesn't need a creator because was never created. He doesn't have a beginning because he was there before the beginning.
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:13
The argument that something cannot come from nothing is also not correct. We have observed many times using quantum theory and mechanics, of particles and other matter popping into existence without creation.
I have no doubt that particles can spawn in environment with space and time, but how would these particles spawn without space and time? Remember, everything came from the big bang, things coming after the fact is to be expected, is it not?
The question of "why does this happen?" has yet to be answered, and may never be answered, but that does not mean that there is a being that created it, it just means given our level of technology at this point, we can only know so much. Back when the bible was written, people thought the world was flat, that disease/illness was caused by demonic possession, etc.
A couple things wrong with this. First, the bible never claimed the world was flat, but circular. Note, the hebrew language did not have a word for sphere, so circle was used.
"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).
He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.(Job 26:7)
The only thing I can think of that would be close to a reference to the earth being flat is Revelation 7:1:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
But, new testaments scholars have agreed that this is a reference to north, south, east, and west. So the claim that people in the bible thought the earth was flat is just false.
On top of that, there are hundreds of examples in the 4 gospels where they identify if someone is suffering from illness or from demons, Jesus curing both of course. But they didn't attribute all cases of illness to demons, that statement is also false.
Just because we don't 'yet' have the answers to why, doesn't mean we won't someday, but we generally do have the answers as to "how".
You don't though, Atheist have no idea how the big bang started. Christians have an answer, but there is no way we can prove it. So, what can be said there.
As a side note - you're a Christian. The bible says the universe is 6,000 years old. That is what your God claims. It is a fact, however, that the universe is around 13 billion years old, and earth itself is no less than 4.5 billion years old. This is not a theory, this is a scientific fact.
That's also a false claim, many christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old because of genesis 1 and on, when the earth was created in seven days. 2 things to note about this though.
1. The length of a day in genesis is not defined. How can you have a day without the sun?
2. It doesn't say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, nor did it say how many children they had while there.
So there is no claim in the bible that the earth is 6000 years old. Just people making the claim.
This is actually a lot easier to answer than the previous argument for the case of God.
I'm going to base this off the Christian theology, as that's what you are debating as and that is the God that you believe in.
The bible says that both slavery, murder, and **** are all prohibited and acceptable.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14
- Zechariah 14:1-2
Ahh, bringing up the old testament laws. Well, to answer that, I say that we christians of today are not bound by old testament laws.
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.
You get the point here.
If the bible is a representation of moral behavior, then the bible is quite simply the most evil moral rule book for moral behavior known to man.
Oof, I can tell your knowledge of the 4 gospels is either rusty or not there. Also, I can't find anything morally wrong with anything in the 10 commandments.
Back in our early years, there was a lot more acts of ****, murder, slavery, etc, and if we all have a moral code that these things are "wrong" built within us, then why did, for the vast majority of our race, accept and willingly take part in the acts of such things as ****, murder, slavery?
Early days, yes, lots of stuff happened. But, are early christians responsible for **** and murder, or were the jews? Well, none of them committed ****, you'd be confusing the muslims history with that of the jews. But if the jews killed back in ancient times, was it because they were bloodthirsty killers out looking to dine, or was it for their own protection IE self defense. I'm not sure if you familiar with the history of the jews, but they are the most hunted race of people on the face of the earth. They're whole history is kind of a sad story except for recently, but that's because bible prophecy has to be fulfilled, which I'll get into later in the debate.
The reason why we don't do these things as much now and have laws against is, is because of the evolution of our society. It is by secular means that we have grown. As we have advanced in technology, science, and sociability, we have step by step removed such things from our civilizations. It is by secular means over thousands of years that we have evolved our society/morals to what they are now.
If you are talking about a different set of morals, you will have to explain them, as I am unaware of any morals outside of the the normal human morals that we take part in.
I'm talking about objective moral values. Moral values written in stone. Humans have moral values yes, but are they objective? Where did humans get these values? Over time you say. But because these values suddenly sprang up, does it make them truly evil if objective moral values don't even exist?
Sure, we can say that what Hitler did was evil, because socially it's unacceptable to murder mass amounts of people. But that doesn't truly make it evil, in a universe without rules, destined to be destroyed and erasing all of human history with it, how can objective moral values even exist?