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post #6 of (permalink) Old 08-23-2011, 04:27 PM
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That would be true if God existed within the parameters of time. God doesn't need a creator because was never created. He doesn't have a beginning because he was there before the beginning.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:13
Do you have any evidence of this? If you have none, then this point is irrelevant. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible, that's a formal logical fallacy called "circular reasoning" and it doesn't work anywhere in the world (official debate clubs, formal/informal debate, etc) as you cannot prove something with something without having outside evidence.

For example, if you say you have an invisible dragon living in your basement, you can't prove it by saying "well, I found a book on the ground that said the dragon actually does live there". You'd have to have something outside of that book to prove, with evidence, that the dragon does, in fact, live there.

In short, you cannot prove the bible with the bible, there must be outside evidence, so you saying "God lives outside space and time", provide evidence, otherwise this doesn't work at all.

I have no doubt that particles can spawn in environment with space and time, but how would these particles spawn without space and time? Remember, everything came from the big bang, things coming after the fact is to be expected, is it not?
These particles spawn without any matter or energy. They spawn completely by themselves without the help of any sort of energy or matter. They don't use the energy of space and time to spawn, they are separate, much like the big bang.

A couple things wrong with this. First, the bible never claimed the world was flat, but circular. Note, the hebrew language did not have a word for sphere, so circle was used.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.(Job 26:7)

The only thing I can think of that would be close to a reference to the earth being flat is Revelation 7:1:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

But, new testaments scholars have agreed that this is a reference to north, south, east, and west. So the claim that people in the bible thought the earth was flat is just false.

On top of that, there are hundreds of examples in the 4 gospels where they identify if someone is suffering from illness or from demons, Jesus curing both of course. But they didn't attribute all cases of illness to demons, that statement is also false.
I'll give you the earth is flat part, as I don't feel it's a very important part of the argument.

However, we know now, as a fact, that illness does not come from demons. It's a fact, there are no demons making people sick in this world, unless you say viruses are demons. Even if it was 1 person who the said was sick because of a demon, that is still a false claim from the bible. We know why people get sick, it has nothing to do with demons.

That's also a false claim, many christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old because of genesis 1 and on, when the earth was created in seven days. 2 things to note about this though.

1. The length of a day in genesis is not defined. How can you have a day without the sun?

2. It doesn't say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, nor did it say how many children they had while there.

So there is no claim in the bible that the earth is 6000 years old. Just people making the claim.
It doesn't matter what a length of a day is defined as in Genesis. A day is a day, we know how long a day is. Keep in mind, the bible was written by man, not by God. Man knows how long a day is, a day is a day is a day. To claim otherwise is trying to claim something that you have no proof/evidence of and, more importantly, have no reason to believe anywhere that it was anything but normal day.

If we go back 500 years, we come to the time of Martin Luther (born in 1483), and Columbus, who “sailed the ocean blue in 1492.”

If we go back 1000 years, we come to the time of Leif Ericson, Christian explorer, who preached Christ to pagans. (World Book, 1983, vol.6, page 270.)

If we go back 2000 years, we come to the birth of Jesus Christ. Our calendar is dated from His birth.

If we go back 3000 years, we come to the time of David and Solomon; they ruled Israel about 1000 BC.

If we go back 4000 years, we come to the time of Abraham (2000 BC), ancestor of Arabs and Jews.

If we go back 5000 years, we come to the time of Enoch, who “walked with God 300 years … and God took him [into Heaven].”

If we go back 6000 years, we come to the time of Creation, and Adam and Eve (4004 BC). Luke, evangelist and historian, records Adam as the first man (Luke 3:38).

The earth is about 6000 years old. Let God's people rejoice in Him who made them! (Psalm 149:2)
Most creationists that I've talked to believe the earth is 6,000 years old. If you personally don't think it's so, then that's a problem with your religion, not my debate, as you guys can't seem to agree on anything when it comes to details.

As it is, the bible claims it is so and so do creationists, so that's what I'm going with.

Ahh, bringing up the old testament laws. Well, to answer that, I say that we christians of today are not bound by old testament laws.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

You get the point here.

Oof, I can tell your knowledge of the 4 gospels is either rusty or not there. Also, I can't find anything morally wrong with anything in the 10 commandments.
Christians of today are bound by all of God's laws, no? The new testament is nothing but a scapegoat for Christians.

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
God never changes, according to the bible. He has always been, will always be, and never changes. He's eternal. This means, whatever laws/rules he put in the old testament, still counts for today, as he never changes, his laws never change, what he says goes for all eternity.

The 10 commandments are in the old testament. You cannot say this part of the old testament is good, but this part is not, we keep this part, but this part we throw out, etc. That's picking a choosing, it doesn't work like that.

What's in the old testament stands for eternity, it never changes, and those are the laws of your God.

The reason we don't follow them now is because we have evolved by secular means and don't take kindly to killing our children anymore.


Early days, yes, lots of stuff happened. But, are early christians responsible for **** and murder, or were the jews? Well, none of them committed ****, you'd be confusing the muslims history with that of the jews. But if the jews killed back in ancient times, was it because they were bloodthirsty killers out looking to dine, or was it for their own protection IE self defense. I'm not sure if you familiar with the history of the jews, but they are the most hunted race of people on the face of the earth. They're whole history is kind of a sad story except for recently, but that's because bible prophecy has to be fulfilled, which I'll get into later in the debate.
Neither the Jews or Christians were responsible for ****. **** has been around since we were cavemen living in caves, so has murder.

**** and Murder has been around far, FAR before Christian religion was even thought of. It was around when Zeus and his 3 brothers were the big dogs in town, which was looong before Christianity. It was around before Zeus, even.

**** and Murder and theft has always been. Why is it not so now? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bible, as already stated, the bible loves **** and murder and slavery. God says it's perfectly okay, not only is it okay, but he tells you what type of slaves you can own and what type of women you can ****, as already stated.

The reason we don't do these things as norm anymore, is because we have grown as a secular society. We have grown by secular means. We have advanced in technology and the ability to be more social and understanding over the course of thousands of years. The bible has nothing to do with it.

I'm talking about objective moral values. Moral values written in stone. Humans have moral values yes, but are they objective? Where did humans get these values? Over time you say. But because these values suddenly sprang up, does it make them truly evil if objective moral values don't even exist?

Sure, we can say that what Hitler did was evil, because socially it's unacceptable to murder mass amounts of people. But that doesn't truly make it evil, in a universe without rules, destined to be destroyed and erasing all of human history with it, how can objective moral values even exist?
I'll start with Hitler.

Hitler killed millions of people. You know who else killed millions of people? Your God. If the Christian God is an accurate representation of how we should behave/our proper moral values, then Hitler is probably one of the most morally good people that ever lived.

With that said, the only moral values on this planet is the ones we have been taught and have been created as we have evolved. We've learned to not ****, to not kill (unless it's in war, of course). We have laws in place because we, as humans, don't want to live in the world the Christian bible says to live in. We don't want to kill our kids when they talk back to us, we don't want to go to a town and kill all the men and **** all the women, we're not big on that these days, so we put in laws against these things.

Objective morals? I have no idea what you mean. There's no such thing as "good or evil" except what we, as humans, make of the words. These two words were invented by people, not God. What is good or evil is what we think is good and evil, nothing more nothing less.
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