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post #9 of (permalink) Old 08-24-2011, 01:07 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by M.C View Post
Do you have any evidence of this? If you have none, then this point is irrelevant. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible, that's a formal logical fallacy called "circular reasoning" and it doesn't work anywhere in the world (official debate clubs, formal/informal debate, etc) as you cannot prove something with something without having outside evidence.

For example, if you say you have an invisible dragon living in your basement, you can't prove it by saying "well, I found a book on the ground that said the dragon actually does live there". You'd have to have something outside of that book to prove, with evidence, that the dragon does, in fact, live there.

In short, you cannot prove the bible with the bible, there must be outside evidence, so you saying "God lives outside space and time", provide evidence, otherwise this doesn't work at all.

Whoa whoa whoa, can't use the bible to prove the bible? The bible is a compilation of books written from different people at different points of history. Some of the books were written hundreds of years after another book for instance.

Second, the bible is the only source in the world where you can learn about the christian god. Using any outside sources would be silly since you would have to fact check that outside source with the bible. I can give an example of why that's silly reasoning.

Say I wanted to know everything there is to know about you, but instead of going up and talking to you, I instead talk to Toxic and ask him to tell me about you. How am I supposed to prove God's existence without using the bible? I'd have to resign from the debate because that'd be impossible.

Also, proof for God existing outside of time? Sure.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

[/QUOTE]These particles spawn without any matter or energy. They spawn completely by themselves without the help of any sort of energy or matter. They don't use the energy of space and time to spawn, they are separate, much like the big bang.[/QUOTE]

Maybe your not getting my point. In order to accurately reproduce the big bang you'd need all the requirements, not just some. You'd need a spaceless environment, a timeless environment, an environment with no mass or matter, or anything. That's impossible to recreate because we can't make a timeless spaceless environment. So I don't count that as evidence.

I'll give you the earth is flat part, as I don't feel it's a very important part of the argument.

However, we know now, as a fact, that illness does not come from demons. It's a fact, there are no demons making people sick in this world, unless you say viruses are demons. Even if it was 1 person who the said was sick because of a demon, that is still a false claim from the bible. We know why people get sick, it has nothing to do with demons.
Well, I believe that comes down to personal experience. Have you ever witnessed a real life exorcism? I've seen a couple, it mostly happens in kids. I heard a kid growl in a voice that clearly was not his. But, if you don't believe in God, certainly you don't believe in satan. A quote I heard somewhere, "The greatest lie satan ever told was getting people to believe he didn't exist."

It doesn't matter what a length of a day is defined as in Genesis. A day is a day, we know how long a day is. Keep in mind, the bible was written by man, not by God. Man knows how long a day is, a day is a day is a day. To claim otherwise is trying to claim something that you have no proof/evidence of and, more importantly, have no reason to believe anywhere that it was anything but normal day.
Let's assume the bible means what it says, and that in 7 (Well, 6) 24 hour days he created the heavens and the earth. That still doesn't answer the question of how long was Adam and Eve in the garden, which isn't written anywhere. So I don't see how that's evidence in your case.

Most creationists that I've talked to believe the earth is 6,000 years old. If you personally don't think it's so, then that's a problem with your religion, not my debate, as you guys can't seem to agree on anything when it comes to details.

As it is, the bible claims it is so and so do creationists, so that's what I'm going with.
The bible makes no claims to how old the actual earth is. If it does, please find me that verse that gives it an age. Second, how can you blame human error on the product. I hope I worded that right but I'll give an example.

A guy bought a chair that needed to be put together. He didn't read the instructions because he knows what a chair looks like. He ends up building it wrong, so he blames the chair instead of blaming himself for not looking at the instructions. In other words, don't blame the bible because people mis-interpret it.

Christians of today are bound by all of God's laws, no? The new testament is nothing but a scapegoat for Christians.

God never changes, according to the bible. He has always been, will always be, and never changes. He's eternal. This means, whatever laws/rules he put in the old testament, still counts for today, as he never changes, his laws never change, what he says goes for all eternity.
Absolutely not. It would seem you don't know the difference between Jew and Gentile. And as I stated before, with Jesus Christ, the bridge between Jew and Gentile was shattered.

NIV Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So I'll state it again, the Law was not given to the Gentile, they were given to the jews.

The 10 commandments are in the old testament. You cannot say this part of the old testament is good, but this part is not, we keep this part, but this part we throw out, etc. That's picking a choosing, it doesn't work like that.
I have a question, outside of the 10 commandments, which commands are given to the christian? There are plenty, but I want to see your answer first.

What's in the old testament stands for eternity, it never changes, and those are the laws of your God.

The reason we don't follow them now is because we have evolved by secular means and don't take kindly to killing our children anymore.
Uhm, abortion?

Neither the Jews or Christians were responsible for ****. **** has been around since we were cavemen living in caves, so has murder..

**** and Murder has been around far, FAR before Christian religion was even thought of. It was around when Zeus and his 3 brothers were the big dogs in town, which was looong before Christianity. It was around before Zeus, even.

**** and Murder and theft has always been. Why is it not so now? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bible, as already stated, the bible loves **** and murder and slavery. God says it's perfectly okay, not only is it okay, but he tells you what type of slaves you can own and what type of women you can ****, as already stated.
Where in the bible do you see murder, **** and slavery being committed by God's chosen? You can make a case for murder, but I'd make the case for self defense. But I have no idea where in the bible **** is shown positively and and slavery is shown positively. I can only think of examples where god frees slaves. Like, the Jews in egypt for example.

The reason we don't do these things as norm anymore, is because we have grown as a secular society. We have grown by secular means. We have advanced in technology and the ability to be more social and understanding over the course of thousands of years. The bible has nothing to do with it.
I find a lot of parallels between the laws in America and 10 commandments. To say the bible has nothing to do with it is just silly.

[QUOTE]I'll start with Hitler.

Hitler killed millions of people. You know who else killed millions of people? Your God. If the Christian God is an accurate representation of how we should behave/our proper moral values, then Hitler is probably one of the most morally good people that ever lived.[/QUOTE

Wrong, We are not supposed to live like God, nor be like him. We are to praise him. We are to be like Jesus, his Son. Who lived the perfect life and died for the sins of his people. Where in the bible does it say to imitate God?

With that said, the only moral values on this planet is the ones we have been taught and have been created as we have evolved. We've learned to not ****, to not kill (unless it's in war, of course). We have laws in place because we, as humans, don't want to live in the world the Christian bible says to live in. We don't want to kill our kids when they talk back to us, we don't want to go to a town and kill all the men and **** all the women, we're not big on that these days, so we put in laws against these things.

Objective morals? I have no idea what you mean. There's no such thing as "good or evil" except what we, as humans, make of the words. These two words were invented by people, not God. What is good or evil is what we think is good and evil, nothing more nothing less.
So, since there is ultimately no good or evil, how is **** and murder bad? Because we say it is doesn't make it actually bad is the point I'm trying to make. Subjective morals are meaningless in a world without rules, it's more of a guideline.

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