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Old 08-24-2011, 03:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
M.C
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Whoa whoa whoa, can't use the bible to prove the bible? The bible is a compilation of books written from different people at different points of history. Some of the books were written hundreds of years after another book for instance.

Second, the bible is the only source in the world where you can learn about the christian god. Using any outside sources would be silly since you would have to fact check that outside source with the bible. I can give an example of why that's silly reasoning.

Say I wanted to know everything there is to know about you, but instead of going up and talking to you, I instead talk to Toxic and ask him to tell me about you. How am I supposed to prove God's existence without using the bible? I'd have to resign from the debate because that'd be impossible.

Also, proof for God existing outside of time? Sure.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)
You cannot, again I say, cannot use the bible to prove the bible, the same way you cannot use a book that says a dragon lives in your basement to prove a dragon lives in your basement, you must have outside evidence.

You need evidence, provable, testable evidence to prove something. You cannot say because you read it in a 2,000 year old book, it's true. You have to have outside evidence, that's the way evidence works, that's the way it always works.

If you come to me and ask me if I have a pet dragon, I say yes, do you believe me? If you do, you are extremely gullible. What I'd assume you'd do is say "prove it", not by my word, but by actual evidence, as I cannot prove I have a dragon just by saying I have a dragon.

The bible is the same, you cannot say God exists out of space and time because a book says he does, you need evidence that he does, and the bible is far not evidence. The bible is as much evidence as me saying I own a dragon is evidence that I own a dragon, it's silly and it's called Circular Reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

You need to either provide facts and then evidence to back up those facts, or just throw this one out of your debate, because what you're saying is your evidence is a bronze aged book written by men who knew little to nothing about how things work in reality.

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Well, I believe that comes down to personal experience. Have you ever witnessed a real life exorcism? I've seen a couple, it mostly happens in kids. I heard a kid growl in a voice that clearly was not his. But, if you don't believe in God, certainly you don't believe in satan. A quote I heard somewhere, "The greatest lie satan ever told was getting people to believe he didn't exist."
You can believe that if you want, but you're wrong and incorrect. It has nothing to do with personal experience, the human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucination. We have 0, count it, 0 evidence or proof that anything "supernatural" exists. Absolutely nothing.

In any case, it certainly doesn't cause us to be sick. Again, the bible says disease and illness is caused by demonic possession. We know where illness and disease comes from, and it's not demonic possession, we know this as fact.

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Let's assume the bible means what it says, and that in 7 (Well, 6) 24 hour days he created the heavens and the earth. That still doesn't answer the question of how long was Adam and Eve in the garden, which isn't written anywhere. So I don't see how that's evidence in your case
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First of all, Earth wasn't created in 7 (6) days. We know as fact, using an overwhelming amount of evidence and proof to back up the claim, that Earth is 4.5 billion years old, so God either doesn't know how to count, or the people who wrote the bible didn't know anything about how to actually test how old the Earth is (they didn't).

Second, you are correct that no one knows how long Adam and Eve were "in the garden", however, most creationists and Christians I have talked to, and have heard argue their point against science, is that the earth is 6,000 years old by adding together all the different areas where things appear, and track it back to Adam and Eve, which was apparently 6,000 years ago.

If you don't want me to take the word of Christians and creationists, then there's nothing I can do, as I certainly can't go by the bible, seeing as it is full of false or incomplete claims, and can't prove itself.

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The bible makes no claims to how old the actual earth is. If it does, please find me that verse that gives it an age. Second, how can you blame human error on the product. I hope I worded that right but I'll give an example.

A guy bought a chair that needed to be put together. He didn't read the instructions because he knows what a chair looks like. He ends up building it wrong, so he blames the chair instead of blaming himself for not looking at the instructions. In other words, don't blame the bible because people mis-interpret it.
Same as above.

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Absolutely not. It would seem you don't know the difference between Jew and Gentile. And as I stated before, with Jesus Christ, the bridge between Jew and Gentile was shattered.

NIV Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So I'll state it again, the Law was not given to the Gentile, they were given to the jews.
So, when your God says "I never change", he's lying then? He actually does change even though he doesn't? He changes from book to book, never staying the same?

That pretty much goes against everything the bible claims God is, no?

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I have a question, outside of the 10 commandments, which commands are given to the christian? There are plenty, but I want to see your answer first.
It doesn't matter, my statement is the same. You cannot pick and choose which points of the old testament to leave out and which to keep in. God is eternal (well, you seem to not think so based on the above point I made, but most say he is) and thus what's in the old testament counts for today as well.

You can't take the old testament laws out because they are nice and skip all the slavery, murder and death that God creates and says is okay.

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Uhm, abortion?
Abortion, legally, is not killing children. Do you see anyone stabbing a child in the face for talking back to them, then everyone saying "well, he talked back, it's okay?".

That's the point I'm making, we don't stone our children to death anymore, 'cause unlike the bible, we've grown up.

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Where in the bible do you see murder, **** and slavery being committed by God's chosen? You can make a case for murder, but I'd make the case for self defense. But I have no idea where in the bible **** is shown positively and and slavery is shown positively. I can only think of examples where god frees slaves. Like, the Jews in egypt for example
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However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way -Leviticus 25:44-46

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As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14

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When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment
- Zechariah 14:1-2

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He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.- Exodus 21:15

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He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:17

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The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead - Exodus 12:29-30
I can get a lot more if you wish, but I just copy/pasted my previous post on it.

God claims it's perfectly okay to **** and have slavery, he tells you what type of women you can enslave, and tells you who you can kill.

God is evil by today's standards.

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I find a lot of parallels between the laws in America and 10 commandments. To say the bible has nothing to do with it is just silly.
Really? Because there's no mentioning that you can't enslave people in the 10 commandments.

Also, the first 5 of the 10 commandments aren't laws in America.

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So, since there is ultimately no good or evil, how is **** and murder bad? Because we say it is doesn't make it actually bad is the point I'm trying to make. Subjective morals are meaningless in a world without rules, it's more of a guideline.
**** and murder is bad because WE claim it is bad. There doesn't have to be a magical guy in the sky to prevent us from doing these things.

We believe **** and murder is bad because it imposes on people's lives/rights. Rights WE created over thousands of years of evolution and social evolution, that we have put laws in place in order to protect them. WE, humans, people, man and woman, we created these rights and laws, we know we did because we have history of them being created.

At one point, **** and murder was perfectly acceptable, we did it all the time. Back in the bronze age and back before that, **** and murder was a casual thing. You could take any woman you wanted, Kings used to do it all the time.

Also, slaves have been a thing for the vast majority of our race and only recently (in comparison to how long our race has been here) have we stopped it, by secular means.

It's very easy to understand why we don't **** and murder, because we've grown up from bible times.
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