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Old 08-24-2011, 06:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
SpoKen
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Originally Posted by M.C View Post
You cannot, again I say, cannot use the bible to prove the bible, the same way you cannot use a book that says a dragon lives in your basement to prove a dragon lives in your basement, you must have outside evidence.

You need evidence, provable, testable evidence to prove something. You cannot say because you read it in a 2,000 year old book, it's true. You have to have outside evidence, that's the way evidence works, that's the way it always works.
provable, testable evidence outside of space and time? I'll concede the argument if that's what you need.

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If you come to me and ask me if I have a pet dragon, I say yes, do you believe me? If you do, you are extremely gullible. What I'd assume you'd do is say "prove it", not by my word, but by actual evidence, as I cannot prove I have a dragon just by saying I have a dragon.

The bible is the same, you cannot say God exists out of space and time because a book says he does, you need evidence that he does, and the bible is far not evidence. The bible is as much evidence as me saying I own a dragon is evidence that I own a dragon, it's silly and it's called Circular Reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
So, The bible is often called God's word inside of itself. The bible never actually refers to the bible, but the books inside refer to themselves. Once again, the bible is not a book, it's a compilation of books written through history.

So, if I'm to prove the christian god outside of the bible, I'll concede that argument too because that also is impossible. Although, to me, that's pretty silly. I do not find that to be circular reasoning and I don't find your example valid.

If there was a dragon in your basement, I'd simply ask you to bring me to your basement so I can see the dragon. On the flip side, you want to hear what God says, you have to read his book.

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You need to either provide facts and then evidence to back up those facts, or just throw this one out of your debate, because what you're saying is your evidence is a bronze aged book written by men who knew little to nothing about how things work in reality.
So, to your my sources don't count as valid because it would appear you have a bias to books written my men in the bronze age. I think if you do that, you have to discredit many historians, atheist included, for acknowledging the fact that Jesus Christ rose. Which, to me, is the biggest evidence for the Christian God.



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You can believe that if you want, but you're wrong and incorrect. It has nothing to do with personal experience, the human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucination. We have 0, count it, 0 evidence or proof that anything "supernatural" exists. Absolutely nothing.
Well, first, I was not hallucinating. These are real experiences that were witnessed by crowds. Second, outside of Jesus Christ resurrection, your asking for evidence that exists outside of nature, which obviously no human can do. But, if it was provable, God would have to do away with faith, which is not in his nature.

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In any case, it certainly doesn't cause us to be sick. Again, the bible says disease and illness is caused by demonic possession. We know where illness and disease comes from, and it's not demonic possession, we know this as fact.
No, the bible does not say diseases and illnesses are caused by demonic possession. It simply says that it exists along with them. Never does it say it goes hand and hand, example...

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. (Matthew 4:23)

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First of all, Earth wasn't created in 7 (6) days. We know as fact, using an overwhelming amount of evidence and proof to back up the claim, that Earth is 4.5 billion years old, so God either doesn't know how to count, or the people who wrote the bible didn't know anything about how to actually test how old the Earth is (they didn't).

Second, you are correct that no one knows how long Adam and Eve were "in the garden", however, most creationists and Christians I have talked to, and have heard argue their point against science, is that the earth is 6,000 years old by adding together all the different areas where things appear, and track it back to Adam and Eve, which was apparently 6,000 years ago.
Most creationists doesn't apply to me. But please, I would like to go over the evidence with you, so please post some. I want to see the evidence first before attacking straw man

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If you don't want me to take the word of Christians and creationists, then there's nothing I can do, as I certainly can't go by the bible, seeing as it is full of false or incomplete claims, and can't prove itself.
Where are these false and incomplete claims? I'm still saving bible prophecy for later on in the debate mind you.

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So, when your God says "I never change", he's lying then? He actually does change even though he doesn't? He changes from book to book, never staying the same?

That pretty much goes against everything the bible claims God is, no?
Like I said, seems your having trouble identifying between laws given to jew and gentile. God does not change, but just because God gives instructions to certain people, it does not mean he's given those instructions to all people. This is especially true when it comes to old testament laws since the Torah was given to the Jews. Do you ever see Christians doing animal sacrifices?

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It doesn't matter, my statement is the same. You cannot pick and choose which points of the old testament to leave out and which to keep in. God is eternal (well, you seem to not think so based on the above point I made, but most say he is) and thus what's in the old testament counts for today as well.

You can't take the old testament laws out because they are nice and skip all the slavery, murder and death that God creates and says is okay.
Same as above. It would appear that you are picking and choosing at this point. Your ignoring the scriptures of what Jesus did and the changes it made when it comes to praising God, and your ignoring the difference between jew and gentile.

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Abortion, legally, is not killing children. Do you see anyone stabbing a child in the face for talking back to them, then everyone saying "well, he talked back, it's okay?".

That's the point I'm making, we don't stone our children to death anymore, 'cause unlike the bible, we've grown up.
Abortion is killing children, no matter what way you slice it. Legality has nothing to do with it. You are ending your childs life. Stoning is far more barbaric, but to say that one is better than the other would mean you'd need objective moral values, because if not, than it doesn't matter who you kill anyways.

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I can get a lot more if you wish, but I just copy/pasted my previous post on it.

God claims it's perfectly okay to **** and have slavery, he tells you what type of women you can enslave, and tells you who you can kill.

God is evil by today's standards.
I have something for that.

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

your definition of slavery is more modern and not the same kind of slavery practiced in ancient jewish culture. Source: http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...ery_bible.html

"First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today - in which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.1 Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath,2 slander a slave,3 have sex with another man's slave,4 or return an escaped slave.5 A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.6 In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".7"

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Really? Because there's no mentioning that you can't enslave people in the 10 commandments.

Also, the first 5 of the 10 commandments aren't laws in America.
Of course not all of them are in there, I never claimed they were all in there though.

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**** and murder is bad because WE claim it is bad. There doesn't have to be a magical guy in the sky to prevent us from doing these things.

We believe **** and murder is bad because it imposes on people's lives/rights. Rights WE created over thousands of years of evolution and social evolution, that we have put laws in place in order to protect them. WE, humans, people, man and woman, we created these rights and laws, we know we did because we have history of them being created.

At one point, **** and murder was perfectly acceptable, we did it all the time. Back in the bronze age and back before that, **** and murder was a casual thing. You could take any woman you wanted, Kings used to do it all the time.

Also, slaves have been a thing for the vast majority of our race and only recently (in comparison to how long our race has been here) have we stopped it, by secular means.

It's very easy to understand why we don't **** and murder, because we've grown up from bible times.
Like I said, **** and slavery (Slavery of this day and age mind you) are not supported in the bible, neither is murder. If you look at my verses provided above, God had every reason to destroy the nations he chose.

And as I said, just because WE find it morally wrong and evil, does it make it an immoral and evil act? If evil doesn't exist, than how can **** and murder be evil?

I see more has been posted, and I'll get to it. Especially Xebby's post (How are ya babe?!?!)
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