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post #13 of (permalink) Old 08-25-2011, 02:14 AM
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provable, testable evidence outside of space and time? I'll concede the argument if that's what you need.
Then that's what you will have to do.

So, The bible is often called God's word inside of itself. The bible never actually refers to the bible, but the books inside refer to themselves. Once again, the bible is not a book, it's a compilation of books written through history.

So, if I'm to prove the christian god outside of the bible, I'll concede that argument too because that also is impossible. Although, to me, that's pretty silly. I do not find that to be circular reasoning and I don't find your example valid.

If there was a dragon in your basement, I'd simply ask you to bring me to your basement so I can see the dragon. On the flip side, you want to hear what God says, you have to read his book.
Exactly, you would ask me to bring you to my basement and show you, physically, that I have a dragon. Saying I have a dragon is a wild, crazy claim, we can both agree on that I am sure, and if you read it in a book, even an old book that is combined text, that a dragon lives in the very spot my house is, you would still have to go and see for yourself to believe it.

If you saw no dragon, and I can't speak for you so correct me I'm wrong, but I'd assume you would say "this story is false, there is no dragon and, using common sense, dragons don't actually exist anyways". Now, in the same light, you are saying a book, or however you wish to put it, is saying that there is an invisible creature outside of space and time that created space and time, and that there's a heaven and demons and all this.

This is the same as the above part, you simply cannot use the bible to prove the bible, it's called circular reasoning and just doesn't work.

So, to your my sources don't count as valid because it would appear you have a bias to books written my men in the bronze age. I think if you do that, you have to discredit many historians, atheist included, for acknowledging the fact that Jesus Christ rose. Which, to me, is the biggest evidence for the Christian God.
First, there is no evidence Jesus Rose outside of the bible. I'd love for you to link me some factual evidence that was printed by factual historians that went on to become great, well known historians throughout our history. Not religious historians, real historians.

Second, the reason why we know as a fact about actual, real historic people, is because we have, again, outside evidence to support the claim. There is 0 outside evidence to support 90% of what's in the bible, if not more, on the flip side, we have an overwhelming amount of evidence for real live historic people in our past, not only from direct historians, but from historians outside of the direct line. Again, not religious historians, real, actual, factual historians.

Did Jesus exist? Was there a man named Jesus? That very well could be. Was he the son of an almighty space being? Provide evidence outside of the bible to help your claim.

Well, first, I was not hallucinating. These are real experiences that were witnessed by crowds. Second, outside of Jesus Christ resurrection, your asking for evidence that exists outside of nature, which obviously no human can do. But, if it was provable, God would have to do away with faith, which is not in his nature.
You know what else was witness by a crowd, millions in fact? John Edwards. He can apparently speak to the dead. Can he really do that? No, he cannot, we have studied it and created my tests around such acts and performances, every single time without fail they fall flat and cannot hold their merit.

There's 0 evidence, real, actual, factual evidence that anything supernatural exists, it's been tested countless times, and has never shown a positive claim.

No, the bible does not say diseases and illnesses are caused by demonic possession. It simply says that it exists along with them. Never does it say it goes hand and hand, example...

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. (Matthew 4:23)
Let's go with what you say.

Demons exist alongside of disease and illness. No, it does not. We know how disease and illness works, it has nothing to do with demons. We know this as fact, not opinion, it's not even debatable.

Most creationists doesn't apply to me. But please, I would like to go over the evidence with you, so please post some. I want to see the evidence first before attacking straw man
Do you really need me to provide evidence of the earth being 4.5 billion years old? It's in pretty much every science book from grade 3 and up. It's very, very common knowledge. I mean, if you really want the evidence I can post it, but dude... there's literally almost as much evidence that earth is that old as there is that gravity exists.

As for you not being with most creationists, how do I pick who is right, you or the majority (that I've talked to and read/debated with)?

That's one of the major problems with debating the Christian religion, there's so many different forms of Christians you never know how one views one subject, and which view is right?

Where are these false and incomplete claims? I'm still saving bible prophecy for later on in the debate mind you.
1. Snakes can talk
2. Demons exist and can possess you
3. The earth/life/universe was created in 7 days
4. Man was created from dust and woman from man's rib
5. Burning bushes talk


1. Never, ever, ever has these been proven with any sort of evidence
2. Number 3 and 4 are factually incorrect, not possible, never happened, it's not debatable.

I only mentioned 5 as anymore might make this part a bit too long.

As for bible prophecy, I'll save you some time and let you know it won't fly here. Predictions given with an infinite amount of time don't impress me or any atheist. I can predict right now that America won't be called America someday in the future, and during this time a war will be taking place.

Guess what? I bet you given an infinite amount of time, this will come true.

Bible prophecies and predictions aren't evidence, as people predict things every single day, normal humans - every - single - day, and it's not that amazing.

Like I said, seems your having trouble identifying between laws given to jew and gentile. God does not change, but just because God gives instructions to certain people, it does not mean he's given those instructions to all people. This is especially true when it comes to old testament laws since the Torah was given to the Jews. Do you ever see Christians doing animal sacrifices?
As I said to begin with, the old testament is the Christian's scapegoat.

There are passages said multiple times about ****, murder and slavery. Are you saying that these passages are only meant for jews? Jews are the only ones who are allowed to ****, own slaves and murder?

I'll give you the "evidence" from the bible showing what I mean 3 questions below as I don't need to do them twice.

As for sacrificing, animals, not that I know of. They do love to sacrifice people, though.

"Take your son, your only son yes, Isaac, whom you love so much and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."
Trust me, I know your counter argument - "it was only a test". Well guess what? I don't care if it was a test or not, he was going to murder his son for his God. He had no doubts, he was 100% sure of it, as god demanded it. That's extremely evil, whether it was a test or not. Try that today and see what happens (more evidence of secular progression).

Same as above. It would appear that you are picking and choosing at this point. Your ignoring the scriptures of what Jesus did and the changes it made when it comes to praising God, and your ignoring the difference between jew and gentile.
Again, read below for my response on old testament slavery/****/murder as typing it again won't be needed.

In fact, this question and the one above, can't they be combined with the other one? I think we have like 3 sections talking about the exact same thing now but in different form.

I honestly want your opinion if we should or not.

Abortion is killing children, no matter what way you slice it. Legality has nothing to do with it. You are ending your childs life. Stoning is far more barbaric, but to say that one is better than the other would mean you'd need objective moral values, because if not, than it doesn't matter who you kill anyways.
Technically, it's not killing children. It's killing a form of life that maybe, someday, possible, in some way, might maybe create a human being. It's at the stage that you cannot even call it a human. It's life for sure, but it's not "human", and definitely not a "child".

Either way, do you see a kid telling a parent off, then getting stoned to death without punishment? No, you don't, we have secular laws against that now.

I have something for that.

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

your definition of slavery is more modern and not the same kind of slavery practiced in ancient jewish culture. Source:

"First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today - in which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.1 Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath,2 slander a slave,3 have sex with another man's slave,4 or return an escaped slave.5 A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.6 In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".7"
This is the part I was talking about before, where I'd answer the two questions about old testament laws. If you agree, we should focus all old testament in this little part, as talking about it in 3 parts is.. well, yeah, takes up a lot of time.

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
How exactly is slavery not accepted?

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

This one has some really nice murder in it, along with the whole "take all the women for yourself" part.

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
This one is nice as well. I love how you can forcefully take a woman into your home, and if you lose your interest in her, she can go FREE, but not if you don't stop loving her (that's slavery, btw).

Like I said, **** and slavery (Slavery of this day and age mind you) are not supported in the bible, neither is murder. If you look at my verses provided above, God had every reason to destroy the nations he chose.

And as I said, just because WE find it morally wrong and evil, does it make it an immoral and evil act? If evil doesn't exist, than how can **** and murder be evil?

I see more has been posted, and I'll get to it. Especially Xebby's post (How are ya babe?!?!)
**** and murder is accepted in the bible, read above.

Who else finds it evil or good? Immoral or moral? You'd first have to prove that there is such thing as something other than us to provide this. You have yet to do so.

The only evidence/facts we have, is that we as people have created these morals and have evolved to accept them in our life.

We just recently stopped slavery. We, humans, stopped slavery. Literally about 200 years back. We made the rule to stop this, the same as we made the rule to stop **** and murder.
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