I think the reason this debate (as with many of this type) is going nowhere is you are both confusing theology with philosophy. The fallibility of the bible and the Christian religion has no impact on the debate about whether god exists.
I suppose if you could prove the bible was true then it would prove the existence of god, but that seems unlikely and in fact would kind of neuter the point of faith which is a central tenet of Christianity.
Indeed this is one of the big mistakes atheists like R Dawkins make. They think by showing how riddled with holes Christianity is they can disprove god. Well no actually all you have done is show the unlikelihood of a Christian God, or that if such a god existed he would not be worth worshipping.
On the other hand, offering an argument like the cosmological one (which has a number of flaws). Even if true does nothing to prove a Christian god. All it would do is show that the universe is not self creating. It is a hell of a leap from proving that something (energy is about all you might prove) caused the universe and saying that that energy spoke to Moses in the form of an incinerating shrub.
In response to the moral argument. Well, just because you are uncomfortable with the idea that morality is entirely subjective and dependent on the evolved values of a society is no reason to posit an omnipotent being. I’m afraid your discomfort with the idea of non-objective morals is no argument for god.
If you have a look at Leviathan by Hobbes or even some of Dawkins Selfish Gene work, or even Nietzsche’s Geneology of Morality, there are plenty of good hypothesis for how we got our society’s values without the need for a deity. I’m not saying I agree with any of those in particular just that your argument isn’t really an argument.
It is much easier to show the holes in Christianity without arguing whether God exists or not and just show that if the Christian God did exist he doesn’t seem worth worshipping. Personally I question why such a supposedly benevolent creature set up one intrinsically racist religion (Judaism) and another ( Christianity) claiming to offer salvation to mankind through its teachings knowing full well that these teachings would never reach millions of people who didn’t happen to live in the area around Galilee circa 30AD.
How long was it before the only possible way to get into heaven reached Africa, or the native Americans or even large parts of Europe. For those people who died hundreds of years before these teachings arrive the Christian God basically said ‘Ah bad luck well here’s an eternity in hell/purgatory’ – a just god then?
And you can do that with other things such as – Why was Jesus dying on the cross such a big sacrifice. Two things suggest plenty of people have sacrificed much more when they died than JC. First the thing that is truly daunting about death is the unknown, the terror that even if you believe in a religion deep down there is that thought that oblivion awaits on the other side. Now Jesus was the Son of God, he already knew what was on the other side so no daunting terror for him. Anyone of a thousand men or women who died for their faith made a much bigger sacrifice than JC.
Secondly he didn’t even go through the whole crucifixion. Sure being nailed to a cross for days while you slowly drown in your own fluids is incredibly horrible and drawn out. Well JC got stabbed with a spear to ease his passing half way through. So even out of the people who were crucified that day, he suffered less.
Or how exactly do we have free will when God says sure you can do all of these things which I have given you urges for but you will end up burning for eternity etc. Or how egotistical is this being that we have to thank him for everything in our life whenever we sit down to eat or anything good, but he gets no flack when shit happens. Yes Justin Bieber everything might possibly happen for a reason but if it does then those reasons are undoubtedly F’ed up – ah yes the Holocaust was all part of Gods big plan. Well God that is a terrible plan, even I can figure out a way to show humanity that trying to wipe out a race of people (your own chosen people no less) is a bad idea without actually letting some genocidal maniac kill 6million of them.
Personally I like the couple of teaching Jesus really emphasised – The golden Rule is a fantastic philosophy. It’s just all the crap Christians drag from other sources in the bible to justify their own prejudices that I have a problem with.
The actual is there a god isn’t there one should really be a purely philosophical debate at the moment. Science offers a lot to the argument on both sides, as does logical reasoning – religion (theology) not so much.
Well back to something useful. Apologies for how long winded that was I get carried away.
Last edited by Hawkeye6287 : 08-25-2011 at 12:03 PM.