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Muay Thai or TKD

51K views 274 replies 71 participants last post by  Spirion1 
#1 ·
I'm having an arguement with a guy on youtube who thinks Muay Thai sucks compared to tae kwon do. I think that the simple lack of protecting your face in TKD says it all. Tell me what you think is better
 
#196 ·
Bouncer all I know is a lot of people have listed really good points and you havent listened to a damn thing. Just think about the weight of your arm vs the weight of your body behind a punch.
 
#200 ·
recon I am responding to peoples comments and questions I was a heavyweight boxer I knew the whose who of the game along with top trainers many which I had. and the first thing that I had to learn what works in the street and bar doesn't work in the ring, because unlike a telephone booth the ring is far to big and someone who is a runner will just run around the ring fighting only for 1 minute of every 3:00 minute round. it's exhausting trying to catch them let along swing and miss. and a good boxer knows that it waists more energy to swing and miss then to swing and hit once your energy is down so is you. I hope I've answered some questions.
 
#201 ·
Yea that makes sense trying to catch a guy would tire you out, but if you didn't chase a guy wouldn't he lose points for not engaging you? But it seems everyone is just talking about the mainstay of power for a punch generating from your hips. I agree a bit comes from your arms. Bruce Lee worked out his forearms an amazing amount because he thought it made his punches stronger (from a Muscle and Fitness article) but I think you would be hard pressed to find good supporting evidence to prove that power (KO power that is) comes from your arms. I am with you that little nat like annoying punches you use when a guy is not actively trying to exchange with you don't come from your hips but I don't think thats what people are talking about. Oh, thats pretty tight you used to a be a game boxer man, congrats!
 
#202 · (Edited)
I never said power from the arms is more stronger than from the hips obviously that is not so. what I am saying is that most fighters use that as a finishing move on a guy that is tired out. from what I've read and maybe I read wrong but many people think its game to just wing it off the bat and this is where I am saying not. boxing is a game for those who have incredible power and speed and I didn't have that so therefore I was not a champ. As far a point deduction goes there is an old rule that points shall be awarded to the aggressor that however changed with Larry holmes,John Ruiz, Roy Jones. who game consisted of throwing 1 to 2 punches and then going into the clinch in boxing its called clunches and bunches. boxing is not any more a real indicator of superiority. and no they don't take away points for to much holding or lack of action, go not throwing the lead right hand.
 
#203 ·
Yea but this aint a boxing forum its MMA, most fighters have good boxing skills blended with other skills to complete the package in order to compete at a higher level, did you check out the video I posted? Look at it, then look at the punch that knocked Chuck Liddell down in their second fight. Thats mma, not boxing, in boxing most mma fighters would lose, in mma boxers would lose- thats not really and argument. Hence different styles.
 
#205 ·
what!!!!!! tell that guy to suck ass. Thai boxing would beat the shit out of tkd...i mean dont get me wrong there a lot of kick ass tkd practioners out there but in a general sense muay thai was designed to pummel the opponent with one kick while in tkd they focus more on how high or how fancy or how much they can kick, it's total bull
 
#206 ·
You must be either 15y old or just plain retarded.

No martial art is better than another, it all comes down to the fighter himself. I trained TKD for 10years and now I train Muay Thai + Boxing and I would step into the ring with any Muay Thai fighter out there. With MT you learn how to hit harder and use elbows and knees while in TKD you learn how to read the opponent and take advantage of every situation.

When I signed up for MT, I told them I trained TKD for 10years so they would put me with advanced fighters and not beginners and my first day was sparring with them and let me tell you about priceless expressions on their faces when they saw me fight because obviously they were underestimating the power of "fancy kicks" and "beauty punches" just like you.

I like both TKD and MT but believe me when I tell you TKD is one of the few martial arts that teach you true explosiveness and speed in the ring. TKD is an art and not a sport so KOs and kicks below the waist are not allowed therefore you don't learn that in TKD while in MT that's exactly what you learn.

So if you want to pummel someone why don't you learn how to hit people with chairs and throw garbage cans at them. You might want to stab someone too. Yeah, that's real hardcore kick-ass brutal style.

Stupid noobs and kids, stop fighting over something you can't win and stop comparing pears and apples and show some sport spirit. Be a fighter, don't be a douchebag.
 
#207 · (Edited)
I have a feeling that what I'm about to say is beating on a dead horse since I only read a quarter of this huge thread.

There are situations in fights that call for Muay Thai, and there are also situations that call for a speedy TKD snap kick. Five years after quitting TKD, I can say that I'm glad I learned the art. It built a great foundation that I could build from and gave me dynamic leg flexibility that bleeds into other arts. There are a few useful weapons I took away from that art that only add to my arsenal.

When sparring, whether it's limited or full contact, I find appropriate situations for a few TKD skills: a quick high front snap kick is a very simple but useful tool and is quite damaging. The jumping double front snap kick can throw people off balance, and has some knockout potential (doesn't Anderson Silva actually use this from time to time?).

Everybody knows about the back-spinning kick; this move can be likened to planting a bomb. If you don't know what you're doing, you're going to get yourself killed (knocked out). Then there's the hook kick; you need great footwork and tremendous speed to use this and when applied appropriately while side stepping, the hook kick can actually do some damage as it may also confuse your opponent. In my opinion, speed is the most utmost important thing for a TKD student... if you're going into a fight with just TKD kicks and average kicking speed, you're going to get knocked out real fast.

When it comes down to it, I ultimately feel that Muay Thai is the superior art in terms of overall effectiveness. Yes, yes, it's all up to the practitioner, but from my experience, Muay Thai gives you a ton more efficient weapons to add to your arsenal when it comes time for a real fight.

Lastly, I know what everyone is talking about in this thread; the arrogant TKD X-degree black belts who are completely ignorant to the effectiveness of other particular styles. Unfortunately, they've helped give TKD a bad name.

I did tae kwon do for almost five years, obtaining a first degree black belt and a box full of gold medals from competitions. I was lucky enough to train under a great master and my Dad trained under the same guy 20 years earlier. He was very open-minded when I continually questioned him about other martial arts and how to combat them, and he wasn't afraid to tell me which kicks are bullshit in combat, and the few that actually have practical uses. In short, he was able to distinguish between competition and combat and that is what made him stick out from the McDojos that litter my city. In a perfect world, everyone could find a master like this in whichever art they pursue.
 
#209 ·
I take both and to be honest thai is a lot more funnier to learn but on the other hand there are over 3000 techniques in tdk compared to thai. For a non black belt thai will win over tdk but if u take time to learn all these tdk techniques u will dominated muay thai. There is a clinch in tdk and u can do some effect moves from and to get out of clinch. U guys gotta understand all these moves in muay thai are tdk moves also. But ur limited in tdk rules in terms of fighting. But in street fighting tdk is deadly. TO sum it all up i would take tdk over thai that's just my opinion but u can never say one discipline is better than the other cause each person is unique.
 
#224 ·
But ur limited in tdk rules in terms of fighting. But in street fighting tdk is deadly. TO sum it all up i would take tdk over thai that's just my opinion but u can never say one discipline is better than the other cause each person is unique.
Just wanted to throw my two cents in - I've gone against black belts in TKD before, and was forced (yes forced) to do some TKD while I was on a tour in Korea. TKD IMHO looked flashy, but was not practical. I've seen black belts get crushed by students of other arts and in street fights.

Take a look at the first couple of UFC's - hell UFC 1 & 2 even. Back while it was one art vs another. TKD didn't do too well.

Ken Shamrock vs Patrick Smith
Shamrock wins by submission due to a heel hook at 1:51.
Patrick Smith vs Ray Wizard
Smith wins by submission with a guillotine choke in 58 seconds
Point here being, Smith didn't win his matches with TKD

I've got to say though, if you seriously spend a lot of time with any art, you deserve props and respect. I enjoy watching TKD demonstrations, but I've got to say that I'm definitely not impressed by the practicality side - especially if the practitioner spends most of their time working towards competitions for TKD. Muay Thai on the other hand - regardless of what you do or don't practice you've got to admit its brutal, and effective. Even more so on the street since half the time, if you cut someone with an elbow they want to give up at just the sight of their own blood.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Smith_(fighter)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UFC_1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcPr4r92b_0&feature=PlayList&p=8BAC36D1197B8CB2&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2
 
#211 ·
TKD sparring competitions are based around speed. A TKD practitioner who brings TKD sparring to a fight is the guy who gets KTFO'd. This is the majority of TKD practitioners as most train for the enjoyment of sparring competition and feel that it directly applies to fighting.

IronMan is exactly correct in his statements that most TKD fighters striking isn't a threat and just an opening for takedowns. Most TKD fighters never train takedown defense.

The whole premise of TKD striking is that your throw your attacks with so much force that your opponent has to either block or avoid them entirely. Most TKD practitioners don't understand this concept at all.

IronMan is also exactly correct that you have to establish the credibility of your striking quickly in a fight. Dancing and pawing works if you are looking to win on points, but typically not if you are trying to finish a fight. These are the fighters that are winning right up until they get KTFO'd.

Most TKD fighters in my experience get real hesitant in a fight where they know they can be clinched or taken down. A hesitant striker is one just surviving until their KTFO arrives.

TKD striking can be every bit as effective as Sanshou or Muay Thai provided the appropriate translation takes place between sparring and fighting and the TKD practitioner trains for fighting. High level TKD fully employs eight point+ striking like every other credible striking art.

TKD speed training or 'flicking' kicks and punches is a total failure in fighting. Punching power is magnified by your triceps, shoulders, back, hips, legs, ankles, even your toes. End discussion. Scientific fact. Stated previously by IronMan and linked from credible sources.

Strikes are measured in terms of force, typically PSI (Pounds per Square Inch)

Acceleration = Final Velocity - (Initial Velocity/Time)
Force = Mass X Acceleration.
Power = Force X Displacement

TKD striking based on speed means that TKD has the potential to generate large amounts of force. What most practitioners do not understand is how to turn that force into power. Transferring the energy of a strike into your opponent is what powerful striking is all about. This is accomplished via kinetic linking.

Striking is about energy transferrence!

A trained, aggressive, confident, experienced, and powerful TKD practitioner should be very respected in the striking game.

I'm 6'6" and weight 235lbs. If I need to train power it is difficult for me to find someone to hold heavy pads for my kicks. Through heavy pads I can still cause significant bruising. I could never use that training for TKD sparring competitions but the fact remains that I'm still using TKD fighting technique and not TKD sparring technique. I've caused verbal submission multiple times from leg kicks and even blocked higher kicks. Rarely are my kicks caught because people don't want to risk a broken arm or ribs. Every kick I throw I throw with 100% commitment and with full awareness that I could taken down. If my kick is caught I'm ready to jump into guard or attempt a throw/submission. I would rather throw with intent and pay the costs than go through the motions of any strike.

TKD is not a hesitant art, period. The art provides the necessary tools for MMA and fighting in general. Most TKD practitioners get destroyed because their first mistake takes them almost entirely out of their game. I've seen BJJ practitions who aren't familiar with MMA grappling get destroyed because they drop for a knee bar and get their head pounded in because they aren't familiar with punching in competition. I've seen multiple wrestlers taken out of their element when they take a knee to the face or end up in a guillotine. Every art still needs to be adapted to MMA but the pure striking arts typically have less of a margin for error and are highly criticized because mistakes are typically more costly and more obvious.

This was a bit of a ramble as I'm working and didn't take the time to format my post.
 
#213 ·
Fieos you just sound like a huge baller.

6'6" 235lbs? shit dude you are huge and you are a huge threat as a anything (to me). im 5'9" 165ish, your personal experiences are probably sort of biased as to how effective TKD is. If you're in any kind of good shape you could probably kick the shit out of most people just because of your size. However your post was nothing but quality :thumbsup:
 
#214 ·
I have more "knowledge"(those who saw my intro thread will get it) over TKD than Muay Thai, but the brutality of Muay Thai really shocked me while I was practicing TKD.

The brutality I've seen in UFC, Pride, WEC and HDnet had me going, but I couldn't just forget about TKD.

Taekwondo concentrates on self-defense, focus, and confidence. It has been modernized eversince it was born.

Muay Thai is based off of a more ancient style "Muay Boran" and it's techniques build up the body, and it can easily be used to end a fight quickly and efficiently.

My pick is Muay Thai because it is a "Straight Forward" art and it relies on simple yet extremely effective tactics to get your opponent down.

Taekwondo is still an art that I favour..but Muay Thai is more dominant.
 
#215 ·
Muay Thai hands down. I'm a second degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do and it does virtually nothing in a fight. The only benefit I got from it was that I have better than average back kicks and roundhouse kicks, and kicks aren't even fun to use in a street fight lol. But other than that it does not even compare.

Muay Thay :thumb02:
 
#218 · (Edited)
Uhg.. I read most of this thread.. I got tired of hearing the same things as I read it backwards..

About kicks.
At my TKD school we have been taught to twist our hips, though I heard someone say most TKD schools don't teach that. I assumed they did.. At the TKD place I attend, I train under a fifth dan. He is governed under a seventh dan I believe. I was taught when you choose to kick "through" a target your leg stays on the target as you're trying to go through. Lets say the target is a persons head. This causes the power transfered from your leg to go into the head but as your leg stays connected to the head some of the energy from your kick will bounce back into your leg thus causing a less powerful kick. So he taught us when you make that strong contact you snap your leg back so the power will have nowhere to escape. (this was explained to me when I was young, around 10 years old so I may have misinterpreted some things) I have no clue where this logic comes from or if it can/has been proven. This is simply something I was taught. As for using your hips when you kick, it's the same principle as when punching. The energy you gather moves fromm the ground up the legs and as your hips snap the energy forces itself out through the chosen contact point(the foot). I have heard some people complain that TKD kicks are useless. This simply is not true, the kick have been developed and are effective. The fact is not everyone does a said kick the same way therefore the kick isn't preformed as it was made to. I feel like an idiot explain these things since it feels like everyone says I'm wrong.

About History.
I also heard someone say something about how since TKD is one of the newest martial arts it isn't something that derives from martial arts that use "brutality". Early Tae Kwon Do was developed from the ancient art of Hwa Rang do which is an extremely "brutal" martial art. Most serious fights being only to the death it focuses on punches, kicks, locks, and fatal techniques. I don't know much more about this so I won't go to deeply into it.


I will save more talk about this when I hear more and/or get responses. xD
I respect each and every martial art equally. In my eyes all martial arts are equal in their own respects, the only difference is the people who practice them.

By the way, I am a first degree, second level in TKD with 5-7years of experience(not saying thats alot).
 
#221 ·
I loved seeing the hwa rang do shout out. It was practiced by the youth movement Hwa Rang, which I assume was essentially very young soldiers, and there was an article about it in Black Belt which I have had for years.

As you may also know there is a palgwe hyung called hwa rang.
 
#219 ·
Mookie, thanks for contributing. I tried to explain energy transferrence and kinetic linking earlier in the thread. Good TKD instructors definitely train to kick 'through' a target. As to rechambering (pulling back) a solid kick to increase the power.... I'll have to look into that. I don't quickly see the value from a physics perspective. The main reason we train people to rechamber their kicks is for a couple reasons.

1.) To avoid having the limb captured and/or losing your balance. No point in landing a solid kick only to be taken down or falling down.

2.) Loading up for another round (Pretty much exclusive for sparring and Van Damme movies) I've scored a lot of points with double/triple kicks in sparring tournaments but that is something pretty foolish to try in a fight.

If you can find more reasoning for rechambering please contribute them. If I come up with some more ideas I'll share them as well.
 
#222 · (Edited)
Fieos, I apologize for my lack of knowledge to this matter.
My current instructor moved to Canada to help his wife get American citizenship so eventually he will come back. x.x

I will try to get ahold of him and ask for more reasoning behind rechambering. As of now I am helping teach at his school with his mother (fourth degree) and his sister (fifth degree). I will question them about this aswell though I doubt they will give me knowledge to the extent that I would be satisfied.

Regarding the method of "pulling" the kick back, that makes it seem as if you literally mean to stop the power like when using extreme control to fight lower ranks(this is not what I mean). When you fight them you don't slow your kicks down but stop the complete power. When fighting and you kick, you throw all your kicks with 100% effort. When you hit a target you don't "stop" the kick but in a means of getting ready for another you would snap it back. As you said you do sometimes when throwing multiple kicks. Many things I might say contradict themselves, this is simply because sometimes when you're taught something you may not know the exact way to do it.

Say like when you are doing calculus, you are being taught the methods by a teacher but when you hear another teacher say this method here can be better you may not know which is right.

As of now I am confused but I suppose that is one of the lessons of youth.

I do sincerely apologize if I sound arrogant or biast, I don't mean to be. Everything that is told to me I do and will take into account. I respect everyones way of doing things and I am aware just because you're taught something does not mean it is right, if this comes to be the case I will simply ask how to do it right. :]


Swpthleg, I'm glad someone else aknowledges who they are as it seems in todays TKD "scene" most places I have asked around told me they had no clue what I was talking about so it must be a lie which is very disappointing to me. I have a little information given to me about them and the palgwe hyung (pattern) corresponding with each other.

Hwa-Rang Tul (29 movements)
Hwa Rang is named after the Hwa Rang youth group which originated in the Silla Dynasty in the early 7th century. The 29 movements refer to the 29th infantry Division, where Taekwondo developed into maturity.



This is a passage we are to memorize before we can achieve our first dan along with a passage for each of our palgwe hyung corresponding to the history behind it.

I highly respect the information BOTH of you provide for this community aswell as every other contributing member. I feel as if I learn so much everyday I read through the masses of topics, threads, opinions, methods, and facts.


My spelling may be terrible which I am not proud of but please bare with me.
 
#223 ·
Hopefully the spelling cops will stay away from this thread.

Currently I take karate, but I took TKD for 3 1/2 years and am an advanced green belt. Our instructor was also big on memorization. I think this is just a coincidence and the emphasis on memorization varies from school to school.

I switched to the school where I am now for a variety of reasons, none of them personal. I loved my teacher, classmates and the art of TKD.

I loved the historical chapter at the beginning of my TKD book, and I should google more of this stuff, b/c it was fascinating.

Good post BTW.
 
#227 ·
Clearly, Tae Kwon Do leads to sex offense. :)

As for the on-topic part, a lot of people claimed a lot of styles in the early days of the UFC. Almost as often, these people had no business claiming the style, much less being in the Octagon, so it's not really fair to judge an art by what some guy filled out on his fighter info form. Even today, few, if any, traditional martial artists show up in the cage/ring. There are more than a few who have transitioned from TMAs to MMA and are able to bring what works with them, though.
 
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