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post #12 of (permalink) Old 12-16-2006, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by astro2
When I said that you shouldn't lock your opponent, because you lock yourself I meant this. When you grab a good hold of your opponent from the bottom, then simultaneously you lock your own position. When you are in the bottom you don't want to stay there, you want to get out. You want to create space, get in a knee, get away. If you just hold on tightly then you give the guy on the top what he wants, control. You have to get his weight off, you have to get yourself in a better position for leverage. This is not done if you hold him, in any way. You should be pushing away from him, until you are in a spot where you once again can attack him and get control of him instead, that's the time to start locking him and holding him, when you are free to get control.
I'm reading a few little things here. First, I don't mean just locking down my opponent and locking our positions, what I'm talking about is taking control of his arms so that I don't get pounded in the middle of my technique.

You are trying to creat distance by getting a knee in, the biggest problem with this in a street fight (not in BJJ competition) or MMA is that when you create an amount of distance like that you are still in a compromised position (where you can both get punched) and he is on the top, which gives him a definitive advantage. I don't want to do that, but that's just me.

What I suggest instead is closing the distance. It's a personal thing that I have, because it's much harder for an opponent to strike me when I am in control of his body in a tight, clinch-style hold. It is, however, equally easy for me to control his body, or his limbs depending on the position, so that I can get leverage and better my own situation.

No this does not give you his back, this pulls your opponent into your guard. In the starting position he is chest on your chest. You are trying to rotate underneath him, and getting him in between your legs, by first getting one knee under his body, then you continue rotating till you have both your legs around him, still lying on your back, and that is the guard.

My mistake, I thought what you were talking about was a full back roll while slipping in the first leg hook/part of body triangle and taking his back rolling over his should, which is just an extension of the armbar I was talking about. Still, good stuff.

Well I can't talk for much more than pure gi-BJJ. With punches you have a more complex game. But considering it being a side control, getting just one knee in should make plenty of distance to avoid punches enough. And an opponent will have a hard time landing punches and even elbows if he is very flat on your chest, so when he goes for the punishment, you will have space and you might accept perhaps a 50%-blow somewhere on your head, until you get half or full-guard and either lock one or both of his arms, or being in a fullguard you have greater control of the distance between you and you can hit him better than he can you, if you keep his weight off you.
This is where I don't really understand your logic.

If I seperate our bodies with my knee so that his chest is now above my chest then he has excellent leverage for punches and a very good position for a basic hammer-fist.

While he is lying on my chest it is actually pretty awkward for him to try and hammer-fist or straight-punch, so what he'll probably do (if he's smart) is go for short elbows.

My issue is that the time you are giving your opponent while you: slip in your knee - push your opponent away - rotate your body - twist your hips - put your legs into position for guard, is more than enough time for a competent grappler to land a few shots. If any of these shots land with any force, it might not be too pretty.

It's actually not as much depending on strength as it is on the right moment to do it, once you have his elbow and he is facing away from you, you have very very good leverage on him, and you might even get the back from this. But the leverage here is him being very low on your chest, facing away and not having your arm trapped. The counter against this escape-technique is of course getting very high on your opponents chest, locking his arms behind your back, and virtually without anything interesting to do with his arms. Then you play for the mount.
OK, I just misunderstood what you were saying.

The point of this idea is to explore all your options, sometimes you are able to instead of getting one knee inside of his body, you move your body very far away from him by circling and you might be able to go to your side and then roll over to your back, by switching your hip in a scissorlike manner, and then immidiately get on your knees. From the knees, even if he is on top of you, you have very good movement freedom and power. It's a more powerful position than most people realise, but since your head might be looking against the floor you need good sensitivity and awareness of what's going on with your opponent. There are plenty of takedowns you can do from here and you can for example pull guard, go for an omo plata, go for the back and lots of other things, depending on what your opponent does. What you are looking for most basically from this turtle position is to keep him in front of you, dont let him circle around your body, so grab what you can.
I understand that, from a wrestling standpoing, your knees are a good position to be. I have issues with trying to get there against an intelligent opponent because it is, again, a very compromised position. In a sport where striking is not allowed then I understand the logic but in a street fight there are few main worries like strikes to the body, elbows to the back and crown of the head and a handful of other strikes that you can conjure up getting from one position to another.

Well I thougth that even though he is not talking about competition now, eventually he will compete in BJJ as I think most people that are serious want to. And even in his training at the club, BJJ rules apply and if someone is just lying and holding, it doesn't give any of them that very much, so either the two people sparring or the instructor should decide to switch positions. But then again who am I to say from which positions you learn alot, if you are lying down extremely controlled by your opponent you at least learn that you can be controlled if you get here, and it might be an incentive to be wary of the position and rolling up to all fours before your opponent has you in total control. Eg, roll up when you feel that he is passing your guard.
Fair enough.

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