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post #15 of (permalink) Old 12-19-2006, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by astro2
I just can't believe that getting a knee in wouldn't be an improvment. With a knee you have control over distance and more opportunities for escaping into guard and pushing him away. You can still grapple with his arms when distance is close, and when distance is farther away you get more leverage for pushing, and hence you control his strike-ability even further.
A knee is fine in sport BJJ and the leverage is helpful even in a streetfight. But if you are giving a trained fighter that kind of room his is going to move right back in with strikes. If he is close to your body he either has to **** his punches/elbows to strike or grapple with you.

Wow, I still don't get what this technique does. But if I even understand the first part correctly, then you want a WHOLE leg to pass under your opponent? Not just the knee. This has to be slower/tougher then getting a knee in.
You're passing the leg up and over the back so that you can control his face and the arm that you intend to bar, once that part is finished you can slip the other arm in to finalize the armbar.

The seperation with the knee is not between your chests. Your knee goes in the creese of his hip, or somewhere over his thigh etc. If he is lying very outstretched, then yes he is in a very awkward position to make strikes, and he is basically sacrificing strikes for control. This might be the time to hold his arms. But before he establishes this very controlling position you might have already have plenty of opportunities to get your knee in, or roll up and away from him.
What you do in either scenario, whether pushing his knees or is chest, is give him room to lift up and follow with strikes. Yes, he loses a certain degree of control, but you have sacrificed your face.

In a streetfight if you are holding his arms you are losing a good amount of your mobility, however, I will sacrifice that mobility if it keeps my head from getting smashed in the pavement.

Yes, you have had plenty of opportunities to escape, but you also had plenty of opportunities to escape before he got into side control.

Well, that chain of events aren't as slow as you seem to think. If you know how to do this correctly and time it well, you will actually just do one bridge over your shoulder and then pull in your knee. This is a big step forward. Your arms can still grapple with his and defend your head if you like. But to get space and leverage you need to push on his body preferably with your forearms, if you already had your arms in a good position, controlling the arm that is nearest your head with one arm, and the side of your head with the elbow of your other arm, then you are basically very near this position. Heck, I think you could even have it under his throat, if he moves for a strike you can elbow him in the head. Either way you have two arms against two arms.
Speed is relative. Even if you "time it well" and bridge over the shoulder, there are still moments where you are leaving yourself exposed to strikes. Those can be minimized with experience, but they will always be there.

Yes, it's two arms against two arms, but he has leverage and if you try and strike with him, if he knows a damn thing about grappling he will pass into the mount and you're screwed.

In most positions both fighters have the same number of striking tools, the issue is leverage, and you don't have that when your opponent is on the better part of side control.

The main issue for me here is, when do you do it. Rolling up on all fours you do when there is still alot of space, or if for some reason there became alot of space. The first scenario is when you KNOW he is going to pass, then you accept it and instead of letting him force his way through you roll up and away. The second scenario, where the space was created, after he established position, could happen sometimes when he for some reason moves away.
Still, it's a bad idea in any fight against any kind of aggressive opponent.

But again I must tell you, that this is best suited for sport-BJJ. Even though there is a good foundation when strikes are involved, I have not covered specific aspects of how to avoid punches. But no matter what, if you get passed, then you can not against an almost equal opponent assume that you will not get hit. You have to accept some punishment for getting caught in this position. If you had been better, you already had 10 chances to escape, all the way through his pass. You can move your head around, play with his arms, push him with your knee, etc, all to make his punches very uncertain and he would have to be lucky to land a precis and hard one. Especially if you get your knee in, then he has not much transfer of punching power from his hips or further down to the ground, and you are also holding his weight off. Sissy-punches with bad accuracy, don't be afraid of them.
Yes, your approach is best suited for sport BJJ, I understand that. I just covered some aspects of avoiding punches, the primary one being that you shouldn't create distance to let him close it with strikes, this is one of the fundamentals of grappling. We grapple so that we don't have to get punched in the face.

You don't have to accept punishment for getting caught in this position if you know what you're doing. Granted, if you get caught in this position then that's probably not the case, but that wasn't the question that he asked.

Yes, there are ways to keep him from getting into side control in the first place.

This is where you seem to miss the mark on streetfight grappling. If you get your knee in, there are other ways that he can do damage to your face. He can use the strength of his upper body to strike as well as using straight punches to the side of your head. Just because you take his hips out of the equation does not mean that his punches are weak, it just forces your opponent to change his tact.

If you are supporting his weight with your knee then you will eat some overhand elbows and some arcing punches as well as, if he sits up, some nasty follow-up elbows.

Sissy punches don't exist in an aggressive streetfight, especially not if the guy is in a better position than you.

Good post.

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