Ben Askren Has a Message for Nate Marquardt: ‘Bring It’ - Page 2 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 05:29 AM
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So the same Nate that got badly owned by all wrestlers he's faced.
Ummmmmm, which are these wrestlers that have owned Nate over the last several years? Chael would handle Askren also.

Okami didn't exactly outwrestle Nate for that win.

So we have Chael, a much bigger man than Ben and possibly the best wrestler in MMA period.

Nate is way ahead of Ben anytime this is on the feet and he has BJJ lightyears ahead of Ben, who hasn't faced anybody nearly as dangerous as Nate in that department.

I just don't see how this is such an easy call on Ben. I would think Nate would be the favourite here.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 05:55 AM
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Ummmmmm, which are these wrestlers that have owned Nate over the last several years? Chael would handle Askren also.

Okami didn't exactly outwrestle Nate for that win.

So we have Chael, a much bigger man than Ben and possibly the best wrestler in MMA period.

Nate is way ahead of Ben anytime this is on the feet and he has BJJ lightyears ahead of Ben, who hasn't faced anybody nearly as dangerous as Nate in that department.

I just don't see how this is such an easy call on Ben. I would think Nate would be the favourite here.
Izuru Takeuchi and Kiuma_Kunioku are also primarily wrestlers and they have multiple wins and draws over Nate.

Okami may not have outwrestled per se but as far as I remember he did utilize the clinch and tie ups a lot which is based off wrestling control as well.

As far as Sonnen being a better wrestler than Askren, that's pure opinion. Askren has far better creds and a much more unorthodox and effective wrestling style, something that made him infamous in his wrestling career.

Sonnen is bigger than Askren yeah, but Marquardt was bigger than him and still got manhandled. People who mention size advantage of weight cutters always seem to forget that the fight will be AT Askren's optimum weight of 170 lbs. That means Nate will have to lose a lot of his muscle mass / stamina to make the fight.

In real terms it comes down to the same thing. Nate at 170 vs Askren will be proportionally smaller.
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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 06:03 AM
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All good points, but those losses were a long time ago now (and were they in a ring, i.e. ropes? Much easier to take somebody down than in a cage). Nate isn't an easy guy to just dump on his azz, plus he can submit you and he has decent stand-up and could be very dangerous to Askren anytime this is on the feet (see Maia or Kampmann).

Also, you don't loose muscle mass to cut weight, absolutely not. That has a devestating effect on you. You diet very carefully for this and ensure the right intake of foods and portion sizes. It is more about cutting water to make weight. As long as you cut weight right (and perhaps Nate may not be able to make 170 without being too drained), it will always give you a relative advantage over a naturally smaller guy (hence people do it).

As for Sonnen, watching his old fights, his wrestling was average compared to how it is now. Some mention the roids (which may be true), or perhaps he has just adapted it better to MMA over the years. Either way, his wreslting now is freaky in MMA and a lot different to when he came into the sport green as a wrestler which is where Askren is at now.

Last edited by Fine Wine; 07-10-2011 at 06:05 AM.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 06:26 AM
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All good points, but those losses were a long time ago now (and were they in a ring, i.e. ropes? Much easier to take somebody down than in a cage). Nate isn't an easy guy to just dump on his azz, plus he can submit you and he has decent stand-up and could be very dangerous to Askren anytime this is on the feet (see Maia or Kampmann).

Also, you don't loose muscle mass to cut weight, absolutely not. That has a devestating effect on you. You diet very carefully for this and ensure the right intake of foods and portion sizes. It is more about cutting water to make weight. As long as you cut weight right (and perhaps Nate may not be able to make 170 without being too drained), it will always give you a relative advantage over a naturally smaller guy (hence people do it).

As for Sonnen, watching his old fights, his wrestling was average compared to how it is now. Some mention the roids (which may be true), or perhaps he has just adapted it better to MMA over the years. Either way, his wreslting now is freaky in MMA and a lot different to when he came into the sport green as a wrestler which is where Askren is at now.
Also true, Sonnen has improved a lot sinze his wrestling career.

But as far as Nate submitting Askren goes, or Askren being a "green" wrestler in MMA, I don't see it.

I mean Askren is already a Brown Belt in BJJ and that's phenomenal considering how short a time he's been at it. And he's obviously far better at it than Sonnen who has some of the worst sub-defence in MMA history, and even he wasn't so much as threatened by Nate's subs.
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 06:45 AM
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Yes green was probably a bit stronger word. I meant it in comparison to the experience Sonnen has now (and the same goes for Nate).

Anyways, this may all be a mute point, because by the looks of it, Coker is talking about Nate being signed with SF. One way of keeping Nate under the Zuffa banner whilst looking like the UFC is punishing roid users. They will just merge him back accross to the UFC when they do a SF merger down the rd. Dana is a smart man.
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 07:17 AM
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Ah crap there goes that train. What a soap opera artist Dana turned out to be.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 03:12 PM
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Ummmmmm, which are these wrestlers that have owned Nate over the last several years? Chael would handle Askren also.

Okami didn't exactly outwrestle Nate for that win.

So we have Chael, a much bigger man than Ben and possibly the best wrestler in MMA period.

Nate is way ahead of Ben anytime this is on the feet and he has BJJ lightyears ahead of Ben, who hasn't faced anybody nearly as dangerous as Nate in that department.

I just don't see how this is such an easy call on Ben. I would think Nate would be the favourite here.
1) In any type of wrestling outside of Greco Roman Ben would likely beat Chael.

2)




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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-10-2011, 10:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fine Wine View Post
All good points, but those losses were a long time ago now (and were they in a ring, i.e. ropes? Much easier to take somebody down than in a cage). Nate isn't an easy guy to just dump on his azz, plus he can submit you and he has decent stand-up and could be very dangerous to Askren anytime this is on the feet (see Maia or Kampmann).

Also, you don't loose muscle mass to cut weight, absolutely not. That has a devestating effect on you. You diet very carefully for this and ensure the right intake of foods and portion sizes. It is more about cutting water to make weight. As long as you cut weight right (and perhaps Nate may not be able to make 170 without being too drained), it will always give you a relative advantage over a naturally smaller guy (hence people do it).

As for Sonnen, watching his old fights, his wrestling was average compared to how it is now. Some mention the roids (which may be true), or perhaps he has just adapted it better to MMA over the years. Either way, his wreslting now is freaky in MMA and a lot different to when he came into the sport green as a wrestler which is where Askren is at now.


Nuff said.

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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-11-2011, 02:07 AM
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1) In any type of wrestling outside of Greco Roman Ben would likely beat Chael.

2)
What about MMA wrestling? Askren still has a lot more to show

Indestructable, see my next comment about 'green', my bad for wrong use of word.
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old 07-11-2011, 02:33 AM
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What about MMA wrestling? Askren still has a lot more to show

Indestructable, see my next comment about 'green', my bad for wrong use of word.
Askren is a better wrestler in the context of MMA too. Trust me. Askren was possibly the best NCAA wrestler since Cael Sanderson.

In a MMA fight between Chael and Ben Chael would probably win, but that would be a size issue mostly. It wouldn't surprise me if Ben subbed Chael, though.




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