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Old 10-22-2012, 11:46 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Never said it wouldn't. I am simply presenting a different view of things. Debate style. As I said I have no issue with gun ownership for whatever reason.

I will argue that it takes less skill to be competent with a sword or a knife in a tense situation than a gun. Knives in particular are easy to learn and - in close quarters - are more dangerous. It's why CQC courses teach the twenty seven feet rule. If they are within 27 feet they can get to you with the knife before you can draw and fire with any accuracy.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:46 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by deadmanshand View Post
Never said it wouldn't. I am simply presenting a different view of things. Debate style. As I said I have no issue with gun ownership for whatever reason.

I will argue that it takes less skill to be competent with a sword or a knife in a tense situation than a gun. Knives in particular are easy to learn and - in close quarters - are more dangerous. It's why CQC courses teach the twenty seven feet rule. If they are within 27 feet they can get to you with the knife before you can draw and fire with any accuracy.
I would say it is easier to use but not to use effectively. Some people don't go down due to a Stan wound and you have to know where the tendons and neves are and slash in the right place to bring the guy down. You have to be quick enough and strong enough to use one which a yong woman or old man can't get. The rule of 27 doesnt apply here because you would already have your gun drawn and pointed and it only takes a fraction of a second to pull the trigger.

Why weaken the resposable Gun owners because of a fe irresponsible ones.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:25 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Last week there were two separate cases within 100 miles from me where young girls knowing how to use a gun saved them from being attacked in their home,
first one , two men waited for her parents to leave then started breaking kicking in the door, she told them she had a gun, they kept on coming and she shot them, killed one and one got away for now.
Second one was similar, guy started breaking in, girl called her mom, mom told her to get the gun, call 911 and lock her self in the closet, she did all 3, the guy forced himself into the house and was kicking in the closet door to get her when she shot through the door hitting him in the shoulder, he fled and ran right into the cops just outside.
I much rather hear this kind of outcome rather than what would have happened if neither girl had a gun..
One case was just outside Dallas and the other was in Calera Okla.
I do not think every person deserves to own a gun, it should be treated as a privilege,
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:59 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Two people asked me "Are you going to take on a bunch of armed guys with a machete?" and "What does the intruder have?".

This is where anti-guns comes into effect. The intruder doesnt have a gun because guns are illegal and unavailable. Here it is legal to own a shotgun with a farm. They wouldnt be massive and clunky and ineffective for robbing a house. Hand guns are close to none existant, although I do have a drug dealer mate who brought two back from abroad (Don't judge me! ). Pretty much, anyone who's breaking into my house doesnt have a gun because gun control is so large. In America, it's a gun fight, because since guns are available, the intruder himself will have a gun. You're not taking a 50/50 risk into your hands. Who shoots first, who is more accurate etc. If you arent trained with the gun then you have just as much chance of dying as he does. If someone breaks into my house, they will at most have a blade, which a machete or a baseball bat would easily out match.

The only reason guns are needed for protection is because guns are available for criminals.
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:10 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locnott View Post
Last week there were two separate cases within 100 miles from me where young girls knowing how to use a gun saved them from being attacked in their home,
first one , two men waited for her parents to leave then started breaking kicking in the door, she told them she had a gun, they kept on coming and she shot them, killed one and one got away for now.
Second one was similar, guy started breaking in, girl called her mom, mom told her to get the gun, call 911 and lock her self in the closet, she did all 3, the guy forced himself into the house and was kicking in the closet door to get her when she shot through the door hitting him in the shoulder, he fled and ran right into the cops just outside.
I much rather hear this kind of outcome rather than what would have happened if neither girl had a gun..
One case was just outside Dallas and the other was in Calera Okla.
I do not think every person deserves to own a gun, it should be treated as a privilege,
Yeah it should be a privilege and people should display knowledge and resposibility befor owning one but in my mind that is an ideal situation. Threading I am a libertarian is I don't trust the gov to make the right choices and history is on my side here. What starts as a reasonable of resposibitity and ability turns in to some outrageous peramiters and then it's damn near impossible to get one. Let the people be responsible for their actions and fend for themselves instead of relying on big brother government to decide right and wrong
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:18 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Two people asked me "Are you going to take on a bunch of armed guys with a machete?" and "What does the intruder have?".

This is where anti-guns comes into effect. The intruder doesnt have a gun because guns are illegal and unavailable. Here it is legal to own a shotgun with a farm. They wouldnt be massive and clunky and ineffective for robbing a house. Hand guns are close to none existant, although I do have a drug dealer mate who brought two back from abroad (Don't judge me! ). Pretty much, anyone who's breaking into my house doesnt have a gun because gun control is so large. In America, it's a gun fight, because since guns are available, the intruder himself will have a gun. You're not taking a 50/50 risk into your hands. Who shoots first, who is more accurate etc. If you arent trained with the gun then you have just as much chance of dying as he does. If someone breaks into my house, they will at most have a blade, which a machete or a baseball bat would easily out match.

The only reason guns are needed for protection is because guns are available for criminals.
And how is a guy like me who walks with a cane after having a stroke going to defend myself against a buff drug dealer with a machete on the street?
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Old 10-23-2012, 12:55 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by americanfighter View Post
And how is a guy like me who walks with a cane after having a stroke going to defend myself against a buff drug dealer with a machete on the street?
Easily. Don't go to Haiti.

We understand your point but some of your examples are seriously weird. Pull back a bit. Wild highly improbably scenarios are bad form in debate. Realism and highest probability of occurrence are your friend. This isn't a presidential debate - we want logic and discourse.

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Originally Posted by americanfighter View Post
I would say it is easier to use but not to use effectively. Some people don't go down due to a Stan wound and you have to know where the tendons and neves are and slash in the right place to bring the guy down. You have to be quick enough and strong enough to use one which a yong woman or old man can't get. The rule of 27 doesnt apply here because you would already have your gun drawn and pointed and it only takes a fraction of a second to pull the trigger.

Why weaken the resposable Gun owners because of a fe irresponsible ones.
I've done extensive CQC training. A knife is easier to learn to use effectively. Hands down. There are far fewer variables, fewer skills, and fewer habits that must be learned to use them properly. Knives also require very little in the way of physical ability to use. That's why they are so widespread and have been so through history. My grandmother could fatally stab a guy because the knife does all the work.

And your assumption about the rule of 27 feet is flawed. You assume that you will always have the gun drawn and pointed at them before they notice you. Why make this assumption? It's a bad one to make. Emergency plans always have to be made with the worst scenario in mind. In this case the worst scenario is that the robber notices you first. More commonly you will notice each other at roughly the same time in which case the 27 feet rule does apply.

And - let me repeat this so you will stop making the comments to me - I am not against gun ownership. I am not trying to take anyone's guns away. I am not trying to convince anyone that guns are bad. I am merely presenting a different side to the argument.

Personally - in home defense - I would rather have the snap baton that sits next to my bed than a gun but I have training in using a baton. I've fired a gun once 14 years ago. I just don't really care for guns. Personal preference.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:00 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by deadmanshand View Post
Easily. Don't go to Haiti.

We understand your point but some of your examples are seriously weird. Pull back a bit. Wild highly improbably scenarios are bad form in debate. Realism and highest probability of occurrence are your friend. This isn't a presidential debate - we want logic and discourse.



I've done extensive CQC training. A knife is easier to learn to use effectively. Hands down. There are far fewer variables, fewer skills, and fewer habits that must be learned to use them properly. Knives also require very little in the way of physical ability to use. That's why they are so widespread and have been so through history. My grandmother could fatally stab a guy because the knife does all the work.

And your assumption about the rule of 27 feet is flawed. You assume that you will always have the gun drawn and pointed at them before they notice you. Why make this assumption? It's a bad one to make. Emergency plans always have to be made with the worst scenario in mind. In this case the worst scenario is that the robber notices you first.
L More commonly you will notice each other at roughly the same time in which case the 27 feet rule does apply.

And - let me repeat this so you will stop making the comments to me - I am not against gun ownership. I am not trying to take anyone's guns away. I am not trying to convince anyone that guns are bad. I am merely
presenting a different side to the argument.


Personally - in home defense - I would rather have the snap baton that sits next to my bed than a gun but I have training in using a baton. I've
fired a gun once 14 years ago. I just don't really care for guns. Personal preference.
My senerios are not crazy the happen everyday people get robbed. It happens all the time. You don't have to be in a bad end of town. Ihave had had friends and myself on the receiving end but got away when the rober saw we had a gun.

You have to remember criminal are for the coward like bullies. The prey
on the defenseless crippled, old men, young women, guys like you are not a target like they are and they cand defend themselves with a batton or are trained in cqc.
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Old 10-23-2012, 03:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Two people asked me "Are you going to take on a bunch of armed guys with a machete?" and "What does the intruder have?".

This is where anti-guns comes into effect. The intruder doesnt have a gun because guns are illegal and unavailable. Here it is legal to own a shotgun with a farm. They wouldnt be massive and clunky and ineffective for robbing a house. Hand guns are close to none existant, although I do have a drug dealer mate who brought two back from abroad (Don't judge me! ). Pretty much, anyone who's breaking into my house doesnt have a gun because gun control is so large. In America, it's a gun fight, because since guns are available, the intruder himself will have a gun. You're not taking a 50/50 risk into your hands. Who shoots first, who is more accurate etc. If you arent trained with the gun then you have just as much chance of dying as he does. If someone breaks into my house, they will at most have a blade, which a machete or a baseball bat would easily out match.

The only reason guns are needed for protection is because guns are available for criminals.
Stopping guns right now in America doesn't = criminals have no guns, that's silly. There's an entire black market for guns, there's millions of guns lying around in American homes, so many that the government wouldn't be able to track down and get or even attempt to spend the money doing so. Criminals who wanted a gun could get a gun without much issue regardless of if it's legal or not.

You know what banning guns would do? It would create an even bigger black market and an even bigger demand for them (from criminals and gun enthusiasts alike), and instead of being sold in stores, they would be sold on the streets (they already are, but far more so).

Your solution solves nothing and just makes it where people who like guns for legitimate reasons don't have legal access to them.
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Old 10-23-2012, 04:24 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by americanfighter View Post
My senerios are not crazy the happen everyday people get robbed. It happens all the time. You don't have to be in a bad end of town. Ihave had had friends and myself on the receiving end but got away when the rober saw we had a gun.

You have to remember criminal are for the coward like bullies. The prey
on the defenseless crippled, old men, young women, guys like you are not a target like they are and they cand defend themselves with a batton or are trained in cqc.
No. They are crazy. Do you know how often someone on the street is attacked by a buff machete wielding drug dealer in America? Virtually never because that shit would be plastered on every tv they could find. It's too sensational not to. And most muggings end if you shown any sign of calling for help. Most burglaries end if they realize someone in the house is awake. Most weapons are a security blanket. That's the truth.

And you're right. Criminals prey on the weak or perceived weakness. The old, women, guys on canes like you, and 5'5" chubby guys with a bad limp like me.

I get it. You're crippled right now at 23. It influences everything you think about. Do you know how I know? Because I ripped my thigh muscle in half at about your age. I was a fighter in good shape one day and re-learning how to walk the next. I used a cane for three years and - according to my doctor - should still be using one. I literally know where you are coming from. I know what it's like to hurt and feel helpless every god damned day. It ******* sucks.

And I know that your emotions are coloring your thinking here. They make the scenarios worse. They ignore probability of events. They make you defensive when there is no need to be. I've been there.
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