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Old 12-13-2010, 02:54 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It is finals week, so I'm a little slower responding than I usually would be, but lets keep this thing rolling.

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Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
That isn't the interview I was refering to, I will try to find it again but in it he was saying how he typically would have been 185 by Wednesday but when he fought Yoshida he was still 198 the night before weigh ins.
Again, a one day cut from 185 for Johnson is totally within the scope of my numbers (actually below 10%) and, given that Johnson is one of the largest welterweights out there, sets a pretty strong precedent that no one else is cutting significantly more than that.

Quote:
I never said GSP cuts that in a day, he probably drops that over a number of days, I only said GSP said he walks into the cage at 185 typically and he said heading into the Hardy fight that due to bulking up he would walk in heavier that usual around that 190-195 mark.
Again, I'd love the see the interview where he asserts that. 185 is within my numbers, but standing in excess of 195 strains believability.

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Its not just how much weight Johnson cuts but also the ridiculous way he cuts it.
Again, this is the difference between an enormous and intense cut that takes place over the course of a six week training camp and the short cut that takes place in the 48 hours before the fight.

In the 48 hours before the weight, Johnson cuts (generally) from 185, as he establishes in the interview that I posted.


Quote:
Have to agree to disagree on that one.
Again, the difference between the weight loss in camp and the hard cut is significant here.

I actually don't think Kongo can get down to 220 over the course of camp, which would put him into position to make that hard cut 48 hours out.


Quote:
Size does have limitations but we aren't throwing 200lb guys in with 265 pounders. We are only talking at most 50lbs considering a 280lb fighter taking on a 230lb fighter (who should be fighting at LHW). That is the maximum size difference we should see but as I said earlier I feel that the 230lb guys are not making the best use of there available options. I believe BJ Penn vs Jon Fitch will be just as lopsided size wise as Lesnar/Couture was but it is still considered fair.
Did you just assert that the size difference between Jon Fitch and B.J. Penn is the same as the size difference between Brock Lesnar and Randy Couture?

Penn, at lightest, will step in at 165 pounds (a hugely low number) and Fitch will step in at (as we've established as a high estimate for the largest welterweights) 190 pounds. That's 25 pounds I'm spotting you, generously.

Compare that to the weigh in results from Couture vs. Lesnar, not even considering the weight that Lesnar gained after rehydrating, and you have a 45 pound weight difference. Couture weighed in at 220 and Lesnar at 265.

So, there's a 20 pound difference between those two fights. So, no, they're not the same.


Quote:
I am not implying that everyone could make the weight or that they would but your major players will. A guy like Lesnar who is marketable enough that he has the resources will make the weight. You will still have guys who don't have the nutritionists and coaching staff necessary that will remain at 265 but who wants to see Tim Hague vs Sean McCorkle for the HW title?
I think you're dramatically overestimating Lesnar's ability to cut weight substantially, and the same for Carwin.

There are fighters who can make that cut, but in order for Lesnar to get to that 10% mark I've established he would need to loose weight in camp and get to around 250 pounds. I honestly don't think it's possible for Lesnar to make weight with the kind of muscle mass and cardio he'd want to maintain.

Again, look at guys like Reljic, who have serious issues with that weight cut.


Quote:
The cruiserweight division would have a lot of talent, my issue is the lack of depth it leaves at HW.
Ah, and there's the rub.

It's always been the case that the lighter heavyweights have been more fun to watch, and that they've been more competitive, but at a point where there are a serious number of competitive true heavyweights, it is possible to establish a solid division.

I'm asserting, though, that fighters like Lesnar and Carwin would be stuck in that heavyweight classes and that a decent number of current competitors would choose not to make the cut, which seems entirely possible.
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Old 12-21-2010, 10:18 AM   #12 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post




Did you just assert that the size difference between Jon Fitch and B.J. Penn is the same as the size difference between Brock Lesnar and Randy Couture?

Penn, at lightest, will step in at 165 pounds (a hugely low number) and Fitch will step in at (as we've established as a high estimate for the largest welterweights) 190 pounds. That's 25 pounds I'm spotting you, generously.

Compare that to the weigh in results from Couture vs. Lesnar, not even considering the weight that Lesnar gained after rehydrating, and you have a 45 pound weight difference. Couture weighed in at 220 and Lesnar at 265.

So, there's a 20 pound difference between those two fights. So, no, they're not the same.

I know I am late to the game but I still think Fitch is bigger than 190 in the cage. BJ being 165 gives IMO at least a 30lb weight difference. When you consider that its 165 pound guy giving up 30lbs or 18% of his body mass and Couture gave up like 20% it is in the realm of comparison at the least.


Your opinion that fighters don't cut that much baffles me I was at even a local fight last week and sitting right were the fighters get checked before entering the cage and there was a WW from Kelowna BC who was bigger than me I am am 6'1 192lbs. He had to be at least 200lbs if not more to be honest I was mind boggled because it was such a small card I couldn't figure out why somebody would do that to themselves. (most guys on the card looked like they cut maybe 10lbs.
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Old 12-21-2010, 02:26 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
I know I am late to the game but I still think Fitch is bigger than 190 in the cage. BJ being 165 gives IMO at least a 30lb weight difference. When you consider that its 165 pound guy giving up 30lbs or 18% of his body mass and Couture gave up like 20% it is in the realm of comparison at the least.
So, what you're telling me is that, in the period of 28-30 hours, you think that Jon Fitch gains 20 pounds? I'm telling you, it'd make him physically sick and basically unable to fight.

Most guys can get close to where they hard cut from, but twenty pounds of weight gain is insane. So he eats five pounds of food and fluid at (essentially) four meals? No, of course not.

That number is insane.


Quote:
Your opinion that fighters don't cut that much baffles me I was at even a local fight last week and sitting right were the fighters get checked before entering the cage and there was a WW from Kelowna BC who was bigger than me I am am 6'1 192lbs. He had to be at least 200lbs if not more to be honest I was mind boggled because it was such a small card I couldn't figure out why somebody would do that to themselves. (most guys on the card looked like they cut maybe 10lbs.
What's you're body fat percentage? What's his body fat percentage? I'm giving you realistic numbers. I see guys cut weight all the time for grappling and for MMA. There are huge guys in small weightclasses, and they do it by losing all of their body fat and making an additional hard cut, dropping the water weight.

They don't, then, put back on all of their body fat. They put back the water, but the idea that these guys are cutting 15% in water weight is pretty nuts. It's done very, very rarely, and not without significant damage to cardio and performance.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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ill chuck in something you may not be suspecting we should make a new division per se, but not a cruiserweight div instead a open weight div like in pride, remembering mark hunt vs silva and cro cop vs silva and someone does not need to cut weight or put it on to face a high ranked elite fighter in another division for whatever the reason may be.
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Old 11-13-2011, 10:59 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think it's safe to assume Toxic and IronMan will have to agree to disagree...

Personally, I see this thread come up from time to time on various forums, because people complain 205-265 is too big of a gap.

The division arguably has the least depth all divisions, it doesn't need to be split into two at this point. Maybe one day, but not now.
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Old 11-15-2011, 02:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I can see why it should be split. Fighters like Frank Mir, who purposely try to gain muscle mass just to compete with the bigger heavyweights, and also Randy Couture who is arguably too big for lightheavy weight, but too small for heavy weight.

But also the talent pool in the heavyweight division isnt great. Also if there was a cruiserweight division, we may see a few light heavy weights make the transition to that division, possibly dimishing the talent rich pool of the light heavy weight division.

If i had to choose, i'd say not just yet. Let the UFC focus on encorperating feather and bantam weights first and then consider the heavyweight bracket. But not yet.
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