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-   -   -1 vs. All Challenge- Nick Diaz should move to Middleweight to fight Mayhem (http://www.mmaforum.com/debate-club/85065-1-vs-all-challenge-nick-diaz-should-move-middleweight-fight-mayhem.html)

HitOrGetHit 12-09-2010 09:17 AM

-1 vs. All Challenge- Nick Diaz should move to Middleweight to fight Mayhem
 
Diaz needs to move up to Mayhem's weight. He keeps saying that he wants a catchweight but in reality, he should not be making any demands whatsoever. Diaz physically assaulted Mayhem and then continued down the path of immaturity after the KJ Noons fight.

If Diaz wants to pick on the BIGGER guy, than he needs to be ready to fight the BIGGER guy.

IronMan 12-09-2010 12:03 PM

There are two problems with this.

The first is that, as Strikeforce welterweight champion, Diaz's job is (first) to defend his title. Strikeforce doesn't put on enough cards a year for Diaz to defend his title a substantial number of times and fight MayheM at middleweight. Apart from the additional time that it takes to bulk up to a new weightclass and then come back down (if he was to do it right) it would take a substantial portion of time out of his schedule that he simply does not have, it would require Strikefore to basically put the entire welterweight division on hold.

The second is that this simply isn't the most interesting fight for either fighter. Strikeforce can build hype off of the fact that they hate each other and had a run in during the Nashville card, but there are definitely better fights for both Diaz and MayheM in their own weightclasses, and I doubt Strikeforce seriously wants to remind us that the Nashville event ever even happened.

I'd rather see Diaz take the third fight against Noons, and get Strikeforce to bring in a couple of substantial title contenders for him to face. Let him take the long fights and push his standup.

As for Miller there are too many fights at middleweight for him right now.

He should fight Jacaré again. He should fight Robbie Lawler. He could, conceivably, fight Cung Le or Scott Smith. That middleweight division is too interesting for Diaz to be the fight that MayheM needs next.

If the hype builds up and Diaz really doesn't have another interesting potential title fight, then maybe this should be thrown around the room, but, until then, and that's at least another year away, this fight is totally unnecessary.

HitOrGetHit 12-09-2010 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan (Post 1316908)
There are two problems with this.

The first is that, as Strikeforce welterweight champion, Diaz's job is (first) to defend his title. Strikeforce doesn't put on enough cards a year for Diaz to defend his title a substantial number of times and fight MayheM at middleweight. Apart from the additional time that it takes to bulk up to a new weightclass and then come back down (if he was to do it right) it would take a substantial portion of time out of his schedule that he simply does not have, it would require Strikefore to basically put the entire welterweight division on hold.

The second is that this simply isn't the most interesting fight for either fighter. Strikeforce can build hype off of the fact that they hate each other and had a run in during the Nashville card, but there are definitely better fights for both Diaz and MayheM in their own weightclasses, and I doubt Strikeforce seriously wants to remind us that the Nashville event ever even happened.

I'd rather see Diaz take the third fight against Noons, and get Strikeforce to bring in a couple of substantial title contenders for him to face. Let him take the long fights and push his standup.

As for Miller there are too many fights at middleweight for him right now.

He should fight Jacaré again. He should fight Robbie Lawler. He could, conceivably, fight Cung Le or Scott Smith. That middleweight division is too interesting for Diaz to be the fight that MayheM needs next.

If the hype builds up and Diaz really doesn't have another interesting potential title fight, then maybe this should be thrown around the room, but, until then, and that's at least another year away, this fight is totally unnecessary.

I agree that from a business standpoint, it will hurt them in the long run because of the weight cutting and things of that nature.

BUT...

The problem is that Diaz is still provoking Mayhem. For example, Diaz threw a water bottle at Mayhem backstage after the KJ fight. How can you do things like this and still expect to make demands? If he wants to keep playing this role, then he needs to eventually step up to the plate.

I am not really speaking from a business standpoint, I am responding to the fact that the Gracie camp keeps talking about the fight, but makes demands about a catchweight. This whole ordeal was started when Diaz made the decision to attack Miller.

KillerShark1985 12-09-2010 12:36 PM

I was thinking about this before when reading a topic about Mayhem wanting at 182 catch-weight instead of 178.

The norm is really if a fighter is going to move weight for 1 fight for them to move up, moving down is more a long term or permanent chance fighters make usually.

On the flip side if I recall this all came about Mayhem calling out Diaz and since Diaz is the WW champ he does have some cause of debate making this situation unique in term that he does have good clause to want to stay at WW.

But in normal circumstances the unspoken correct course of etiquette almost, is for the smaller fighter to move in weight to test himself, look at Penn vs GSP, A.Silva vs Forest for examples, fighters who moved down like Bisping and Wandy did so on more permanent grounds.

HitOrGetHit 12-09-2010 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerShark1985 (Post 1316919)
I was thinking about this before when reading a topic about Mayhem wanting at 182 catch-weight instead of 178.

The norm is really if a fighter is going to move weight for 1 fight for them to move up, moving down is more a long term or permanent chance fighters make usually.

On the flip side if I recall this all came about Mayhem calling out Diaz and since Diaz is the WW champ he does have some cause of debate making this situation unique in term that he does have good clause to want to stay at WW.

But in normal circumstances the unspoken correct course of etiquette almost, is for the smaller fighter to move in weight to test himself, look at Penn vs GSP, A.Silva vs Forest for examples, fighters who moved down like Bisping and Wandy did so on more permanent grounds.

Mayhem is trying so hard to get this fight because of the altercation that occured after Shields defended his title.

If Mayhem was just calling Diaz out then I would definitely say that Mayhem needs to meet halfway between the weights at the very least. But considering the circumstances, I think Diaz owes Mayhem a fight.

If Diaz is not going to go to middleweight, fine. But he needs to stop talking about fighting Mayhem and stop throwing things at Mayhem backstage and causing more and more drama between them.

Like I said, you can't pick on the bigger guy and then not fight the bigger guy.

IronMan 12-20-2010 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HitOrGetHit (Post 1316911)
I agree that from a business standpoint, it will hurt them in the long run because of the weight cutting and things of that nature.

It's not just about business for Strikeforce, though ultimately that's what is going to swing Scott Coker's decision, and he is the one with the pull over these matchups.

It's also an issue of the interests of the camp. There's not much to gain and a lot to lose for Diaz. If he beats Jason Miller, what does he gain? A win over a middleweight (a division that he has no interest in fighting in long term) that doesn't seriously improve his international credibility as a welterweight, that doesn't give him another title defense and that doesn't help him build an argument for himself as either a legend killer or a legend himself.

But if he loses, his legitimacy as the champ is inevitably going to be challenged, his confidence gets shaken and his ability as a draw for Strikeforce (which is important for negotiating his contract) is going to be substantially diminished.


Quote:

The problem is that Diaz is still provoking Mayhem. For example, Diaz threw a water bottle at Mayhem backstage after the KJ fight. How can you do things like this and still expect to make demands? If he wants to keep playing this role, then he needs to eventually step up to the plate.
If you're trying to make the "man up and fight" argument, that's fine, but the reality is that fighters at the level that Diaz is at can't afford to take grudge matches. Realistically, that's possible for guys like Hermes Franca when he fights a guy for a dollar, at a point where he wasn't in the top ten and wasn't staring down a title shot.

But this is a time when Diaz is finally trying to focus on establishing his legitimacy as a title holder. Strikeforce is finally bringing in competition for him to defend his belt against, and he is finally starting to realize that fighting in exhibition matches is not a good way to establish a ranking.

Does he have an obligation to sack up and fight a guy that he's been dealing with a grudge match with for a long time? You can make that argument.

But the reality is that it's not good for his career, it's not good for the fans and it's not good for the organization that would end up putting the bout on. So, why should we entertain that obligation over the financial interests of the organization and the possibility of more interesting fights that have a title on the line and, as a result, more relevance?


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I am not really speaking from a business standpoint, I am responding to the fact that the Gracie camp keeps talking about the fight, but makes demands about a catchweight. This whole ordeal was started when Diaz made the decision to attack Miller.
James Toney keeps talking about how he should fight Wladimir Klitschko. Is it in anyone's best interest for that fight to happen? No. Is it the best fight out there for the fans? Not really.

So why should I care that the fight isn't happening? What's the motivation of the fans to push for it and (not at all separately) what's the motivation of promoter to try and get these two guys to sign the contract?

HitOrGetHit 12-20-2010 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan (Post 1324707)
It's not just about business for Strikeforce, though ultimately that's what is going to swing Scott Coker's decision, and he is the one with the pull over these matchups.

I agree but Coker has already come out and said multiple times that he wants this fight to happen. The fans want it to happen. Mayhem wants it to happen. Nick Diaz is literally the only person that doesn't want this fight to happen.

Quote:

It's also an issue of the interests of the camp. There's not much to gain and a lot to lose for Diaz. If he beats Jason Miller, what does he gain? A win over a middleweight (a division that he has no interest in fighting in long term) that doesn't seriously improve his international credibility as a welterweight, that doesn't give him another title defense and that doesn't help him build an argument for himself as either a legend killer or a legend himself.
But if he loses, his legitimacy as the champ is inevitably going to be challenged, his confidence gets shaken and his ability as a draw for Strikeforce (which is important for negotiating his contract) is going to be substantially diminished.

In my opinion, he should have though about all of this before attacking Mayhem. My biggest problem with it, is that he is still pulling stunts like this AFTER the Gracie camp has been leaning away from the fight. If he literally does not want this fight then fine, don't take it. But he really needs to stop provoking Mayhem.

Quote:

If you're trying to make the "man up and fight" argument, that's fine, but the reality is that fighters at the level that Diaz is at can't afford to take grudge matches. Realistically, that's possible for guys like Hermes Franca when he fights a guy for a dollar, at a point where he wasn't in the top ten and wasn't staring down a title shot.
To be honest, fighter's at Diaz's level don't attack fellow fighters and throw water bottles at them either. A real professional needs to act professional.

Quote:

But this is a time when Diaz is finally trying to focus on establishing his legitimacy as a title holder. Strikeforce is finally bringing in competition for him to defend his belt against, and he is finally starting to realize that fighting in exhibition matches is not a good way to establish a ranking.
I wouldn't have a problem with this. I just want him to stop provoking Mayhem, and for him , not the Gracie Camp, but Nick Diaz to come out and say that he does not want to fight Mayhem Miller.

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Does he have an obligation to sack up and fight a guy that he's been dealing with a grudge match with for a long time? You can make that argument.


I think he needs to either fight Mayhem, or come out, say no, and stop with the nonsense.

Quote:

But the reality is that it's not good for his career, it's not good for the fans and it's not good for the organization that would end up putting the bout on. So, why should we entertain that obligation over the financial interests of the organization and the possibility of more interesting fights that have a title on the line and, as a result, more relevance?


Like I said earlier, everyone including Scott Coker wants this fight to happen.

Quote:

James Toney keeps talking about how he should fight Wladimir Klitschko. Is it in anyone's best interest for that fight to happen? No. Is it the best fight out there for the fans? Not really.


These are two different situations. Miller wants a chance to have a fair fight against someone who he believes tried to beat him in a cheap way.

Quote:

So why should I care that the fight isn't happening? What's the motivation of the fans to push for it and (not at all separately) what's the motivation of promoter to try and get these two guys to sign the contract?
This fight can be marketed in a huge way. Their conflict is out in the open, fans want the fight to happen, Coker wants the fight to happen, because fights that draw this much attention are good for business.

IronMan 12-20-2010 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HitOrGetHit (Post 1324718)
I agree but Coker has already come out and said multiple times that he wants this fight to happen. The fans want it to happen. Mayhem wants it to happen. Nick Diaz is literally the only person that doesn't want this fight to happen.

Again, I understand why Coker has said that he wants this bout to happen. But if I'm Scott Coker (I'm not, but let's just speak hypothetically for a second here) it's good to have a grudge match. It's less good to have my top welterweight lose to an unranked former welterweight.

It's actually worse to have MayheM loose, since it kills the argument they're trying to make that he should be a middleweight contender, which is an interesting argument given how competitive his fight was with Shields.

Scott Coker is not stupid (and I'm not saying that because I was pretending to be Scott Coker a second ago) so I assume he knows that this is a lose/lose situation for him in terms of hype for these two fighters that, at this point, he really needs to be bringing in the money for him.


Quote:

In my opinion, he should have though about all of this before attacking Mayhem. My biggest problem with it, is that he is still pulling stunts like this AFTER the Gracie camp has been leaning away from the fight. If he literally does not want this fight then fine, don't take it. But he really needs to stop provoking Mayhem.

To be honest, fighter's at Diaz's level don't attack fellow fighters and throw water bottles at them either. A real professional needs to act professional.

I'm not going to defend Nick Diaz acting like a neanderthal. He knows that he's not the smartest guy, and he knows that his impulsive behavior pisses a lot of people off. These are realities of his career, and I think he's more than aware of them.

I think he probably should have been thinking of something else (what would my mother think? or somesuch) before attacking Miller. But it's not about behavior. It's about good fights.


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I wouldn't have a problem with this. I just want him to stop provoking Mayhem, and for him , not the Gracie Camp, but Nick Diaz to come out and say that he does not want to fight Mayhem Miller.

I think he needs to either fight Mayhem, or come out, say no, and stop with the nonsense.
And I want Ikuhisa Minowa to submit Brock Lesnar with a heelhook.

And I want to go into my room and find Jessica Alba laying in some seductive position on my bed.

And I want a pony.

But it'll never happen. We know that, and we know why.


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Like I said earlier, everyone including Scott Coker wants this fight to happen.
Not enough to make it happen. If Scott Coker wanted it badly, it'd happen. People seem to underestimate Scott Coker's power as a fight promoter and as a man who can convince fighters to do what he needs them to do to fill his pocket.

There are too many other fights that are better for him than this one, for both Diaz and MayheM, to create the appropriate motivation. He wants to see this, for sure, because it'd be a solid payday. You know what's a better payday? To get Miller and Diaz on cards fighting opponents in their respective weightclasses and building credibility.

Strikeforce didn't get where it is, and hasn't stayed there for a substantial amount of time, for putting together events that don't have a long term outlook. They're meticulous about that. Look at the matchmaking for Josh Thomson and Gilbert Melendez over their respective careers, or the matchmaking for Cung Le, or even Nick Diaz.


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These are two different situations. Miller wants a chance to have a fair fight against someone who he believes tried to beat him in a cheap way.
I'm not ignoring the legitimacy of the claim, but my point is this: there are better things for both Miller and Diaz to be doing. That's the analogy.

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This fight can be marketed in a huge way. Their conflict is out in the open, fans want the fight to happen, Coker wants the fight to happen, because fights that draw this much attention are good for business.
Great, and after Diaz vs. Miller part one and (at least) part two, what do you do with the current welterweight champion, who has already lost much of his credibility for losing the trilogy and hasn't defended his title in six months? Or if Diaz wins, what do you do with Miller, who you've basically borrowed from Dream on the basis of making him a credible middleweight, and have officially screwed that possibility up by letting him lose to a fighter much smaller than him with essentially no credibility in the middleweight division?

I'm not saying there isn't money to be made here. We all know that great grudge matches, even when drawn out way too much, make great money. But here's the problem: these are guys who are trying to do things in their career that are totally unrelated to this grudge match.

There are grudge matches that are natural and hugely beneficial for the careers of the involved fighters (Ken Shamrock vs. Royce Gracie; Shamrock vs. Dan Severn; Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes) and then there are grudge matches between fighters who are still trying to maintain relevance (Tito Ortiz vs. Ken Shamrock).

This isn't one of those. This is a fight that distracts from what these guys should be doing with their careers. Both of these guys are relevant, and should have to fight like they are relevant: fight contenders in their respective weightclasses and try to establish top ten status.

HitOrGetHit 12-28-2010 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan (Post 1324744)
Again, I understand why Coker has said that he wants this bout to happen. But if I'm Scott Coker (I'm not, but let's just speak hypothetically for a second here) it's good to have a grudge match. It's less good to have my top welterweight lose to an unranked former welterweight.

It's actually worse to have MayheM loose, since it kills the argument they're trying to make that he should be a middleweight contender, which is an interesting argument given how competitive his fight was with Shields.

Scott Coker is not stupid (and I'm not saying that because I was pretending to be Scott Coker a second ago) so I assume he knows that this is a lose/lose situation for him in terms of hype for these two fighters that, at this point, he really needs to be bringing in the money for him.

I guess this comes down to what you believe to be a "loss". If Mayhem were to lose, I don't really see why he can't still be considered a contender. I mean Penn loss to Edgar, and went to WW where a ton of people believe that he is still a contender there.

Also, I think Coker is entertaining this fight more than people think. He even said that he was more interested in this fight than seeing Diaz/Daley.


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I'm not going to defend Nick Diaz acting like a neanderthal. He knows that he's not the smartest guy, and he knows that his impulsive behavior pisses a lot of people off. These are realities of his career, and I think he's more than aware of them.

I think he probably should have been thinking of something else (what would my mother think? or somesuch) before attacking Miller. But it's not about behavior. It's about good fights.

Taking into account what occured, I think this is more of an issues about morals than careers. It isn't the same for everyone, but I will always place my morals before my career. Bottom line, if you attack someone like that, then the very very least that you can do is give them a real shot at you. Because in all honesty, it looks cowardly on Diaz's part as well.

Quote:

And I want Ikuhisa Minowa to submit Brock Lesnar with a heelhook.

And I want to go into my room and find Jessica Alba laying in some seductive position on my bed.

And I want a pony.

But it'll never happen. We know that, and we know why.

Then this proves that although Diaz can fight well, he is still acting cowardly. That's it. If you insult someone and provoke them, in situations that they know they will not be harmed, and then refuse to actually fight them, that is the act of a coward at heart.

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Not enough to make it happen. If Scott Coker wanted it badly, it'd happen. People seem to underestimate Scott Coker's power as a fight promoter and as a man who can convince fighters to do what he needs them to do to fill his pocket.
I don't underestimate him at all but it doesn't mean that he has 100% control of who fights who. It all comes down to the fighters signing the contract. Diaz would be completely stupid to not see the money that a fight like this would bring in if it happened.

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There are too many other fights that are better for him than this one, for both Diaz and MayheM, to create the appropriate motivation. He wants to see this, for sure, because it'd be a solid payday. You know what's a better payday? To get Miller and Diaz on cards fighting opponents in their respective weight classes and building credibility.


I agree from a business standpoint. I am talking about the Diaz/Mayhem fight and the reason I have taken this stance is because the Gracie Camp keeps counter offering different weights than Mayhem wanted. I am pretty much saying that if they want this figh to happen, then go to Mayhem's weight, if not then shut up.

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Strikeforce didn't get where it is, and hasn't stayed there for a substantial amount of time, for putting together events that don't have a long term outlook. They're meticulous about that. Look at the matchmaking for Josh Thomson and Gilbert Melendez over their respective careers, or the matchmaking for Cung Le, or even Nick Diaz.


Right but saying this could have no long term benefits whatsoever is pure speculation. Whoever wins, their stock will rise substantially. Diaz would have a win in the weight class above his natural weight. Or Mayhem would have a win over a champion thus reinforcing his contender status.

Not to mention that they copuld possibly line up a rematch down the road and another if they each take one of the fights. The money brough in for rivalry fights is very good as well as many viewers.


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I'm not ignoring the legitimacy of the claim, but my point is this: there are better things for both Miller and Diaz to be doing. That's the analogy.
Any my point is that they can both go and do whatever they please. Diaz can go fight whoever, but the fact of the matter is that he is still hung up on this as well. I wouldn't care if he said no to the fight indefinitely. But he needs to stop making it a point to stir the pot if he has no intentions of actually acting on any of it.

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Great, and after Diaz vs. Miller part one and (at least) part two, what do you do with the current welterweight champion, who has already lost much of his credibility for losing the trilogy and hasn't defended his title in six months? Or if Diaz wins, what do you do with Miller, who you've basically borrowed from Dream on the basis of making him a credible middleweight, and have officially screwed that possibility up by letting him lose to a fighter much smaller than him with essentially no credibility in the middleweight division?
This is fighting, and there will always be a loser. Especially at this level when they are constantly tring to build contenders, fighters are going to rise and fall. It is part of the business. I don't think that this is any reason for strikeforce to not try and make this fight happen. A fight that the fans are calling for is a good fight for business.

If Mayhem loses, then he will have to work his way back to contender status. This is what happens everytime a contender loses.

If Diaz loses, I don't see how he loses credibility in the WW division. He will still be the champ and if he can still defend that title, then I don't see what difference it really makes that he can't win in a weight division higher than his own.

Before BJ Penn lost his title to Frankie Edgar, he had 4 losses at weight classes higher than his own, yet people still thought of him as one of the most (if not the most) dominant LW champs of all time. This same logic can be applied to Diaz if he were to lose this bout.


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I'm not saying there isn't money to be made here. We all know that great grudge matches, even when drawn out way too much, make great money. But here's the problem: these are guys who are trying to do things in their career that are totally unrelated to this grudge match.


While this is true, these two fighters are still spending a lot of time thinking and talking about each other. So it isn't like they are making this go away. Mayhem and Nick are both continually stirring the pot.

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There are grudge matches that are natural and hugely beneficial for the careers of the involved fighters (Ken Shamrock vs. Royce Gracie; Shamrock vs. Dan Severn; Georges St. Pierre vs. Matt Hughes) and then there are grudge matches between fighters who are still trying to maintain relevance (Tito Ortiz vs. Ken Shamrock).

This isn't one of those. This is a fight that distracts from what these guys should be doing with their careers. Both of these guys are relevant, and should have to fight like they are relevant: fight contenders in their respective weightclasses and try to establish top ten status.


So you are saying that if Nick wins at MW that it won't benefit him in his career. And also that if Mayhem gets a win over the WW champ that it won't benefit him either?

There is a benefit for either fighter.


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