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-   -   -1vs.All Challenge- Extremely Religious People Have Schizophrenia (http://www.mmaforum.com/debate-club/87026-1vs-all-challenge-extremely-religious-people-have-schizophrenia.html)

Dtwizzy2k5 02-03-2011 03:53 AM

-1vs.All Challenge- Extremely Religious People Have Schizophrenia
 
Thesis statement: People who are extremely religious can be diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and should be treated as mentally ill patients who should be separated from normal members of society.

Argument: According to the DSM-IV criteria for diagnosing schizophrenia, the following conditions must be met in a patient:

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Social or occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care, are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset.
4. Significant duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least six months. This six-month period must include at least one month of symptoms (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment).

Furthermore, schizo sufferers often are very paranoid and have some sort of savior complex.

Example: George W.Bush is a good example of a famous person who was self-described as being highly religious. Let's check the criteria...

1. Delusions - Bush believed that there was an invisible being judging him and all people who sent his "son" 2000 years ago to be killed so that mankind can be "cleansed from sin" :confused03:

2. Hallucinations - Bush claimed numerous times that he actually "spoke to God" and that He "told him" to do certain things, such as invading Iraq.

3. Job Impairment - It's unquestionable that these delusions caused a severe drop in Bush's job performance, as he went on to make many poor decisions because God told him to (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc). Many historians have marked him as one of the worst presidents of all time.

4. Duration of symptoms - Bush has had his extreme religious conviction for many years.

Furthermore, Bush was highly paranoid and believed terrorists were always out to get us and come destroy the USA. It was this paranoia that led to the Iraq/Afghan invasions and is the reason why he created his color-coded terror alert system.
Also, Bush had a savior complex in believing that God was directing him to guide humanity in the right direction despite how much people hated and opposed him.


Conclusion: Bush is just one famous example, but my point stands that extremely religious people are really just suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and should be treated as such. Believing that the earth is 6,000 years old and that we are here because a girl named Eve ate a a forbidden apple is truly sad, and these people deserve proper medication and therapy just like all other schizo sufferers.
Think of the tragedies that could have been prevented (9/11 for instance) had these poor mentally ill patients received the proper attention they need. :(

Ape City 02-17-2011 12:05 AM

I like how you used DSM 4, but one problem with your argument is your application of the symptoms. You applied them in a socio aspect as opposed to psychological one. Everything you described in 1-4 is considered acceptable behavior and is the way many religious people feel.

Just because you think it is delusional that Bush believes he is talking to god doesn't mean it is. This isn't something he has developed from a chemical imbalance (the basis of adult onset schizophrenia) it is something that was taught to him by the church.

Something that is taught to you is not a delusion. Hitler youth were not delusional in believing that Hitler had a direct connection to god, they were mislead and fed lies, just like in the church. there is a big difference.

CutterKick 02-18-2011 03:12 PM

Obviously this is coming from a biast opinionator. I would call myself highly religious but, I'm a very real person. If I'm in trouble praying won't be my first instinct, I take it into my own hands - Christians believe God gave people the ability to make their own decisions.
Many Christians become so after a 'miracle', foe example - My father survived a heart attack after most doctors gave up hope. I prayed as a last resort, he got better ... I'm not saying it was from parying though. People like to have faith in something. The way I see it is, I would rather live happily believing something false than laying waiting for my life to fade away.
Your decision is extremely biast, try and look up some other things besides negatives.

Dtwizzy2k5 02-20-2011 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CutterKick (Post 1364784)
Obviously this is coming from a biast opinionator. I would call myself highly religious but, I'm a very real person. If I'm in trouble praying won't be my first instinct, I take it into my own hands - Christians believe God gave people the ability to make their own decisions.
Many Christians become so after a 'miracle', foe example - My father survived a heart attack after most doctors gave up hope. I prayed as a last resort, he got better ... I'm not saying it was from parying though. People like to have faith in something. The way I see it is, I would rather live happily believing something false than laying waiting for my life to fade away.
Your decision is extremely biast, try and look up some other things besides negatives.

There's no bias in my argument, just logic and facts that i pointed out. Would you like to come up with a counter-argument to one of my arguments?
You didnt debate anything, you simply got defensive about your faith as if it were under attack without even addressing the topic of schizophrenia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ape City (Post 1363856)
I like how you used DSM 4, but one problem with your argument is your application of the symptoms. You applied them in a socio aspect as opposed to psychological one. Everything you described in 1-4 is considered acceptable behavior and is the way many religious people feel.

Just because you think it is delusional that Bush believes he is talking to god doesn't mean it is. This isn't something he has developed from a chemical imbalance (the basis of adult onset schizophrenia) it is something that was taught to him by the church.

Something that is taught to you is not a delusion. Hitler youth were not delusional in believing that Hitler had a direct connection to god, they were mislead and fed lies, just like in the church. there is a big difference.

You have brought up a good point about the difference between a psychologically defined delusion and a lie that one has been taught to believe. But what of the extremely religious people who werent "taught" to believe their delusions, but rather believe them out of their own will?

What i mean is, there are many extreme religious people who are not members of a church (or place of worship) and that werent taught by their parents to believe their delusions. But rather, they may have picked up a book of myths and become out of touch with the reality of the world they live in.

Furthermore, i must dispute your claim that extremely religious delusions are not biologically based in the brain the same way that early-onset schizophrenia is. In fact, it has been scientifically shown that humans evolved to adapt to the anxiety associated with having knowledge of the inevitability of death by developing a unique area of the brain referred to in laymen's terms as the "god part" of the brain.
Here is just one link for information:
http://www.godpart.com/index.html

It has also been shown through studies that electric stimulation of this part of the brain in an individual produces hallucinations that the participant describes in spiritual and god-like terms.

Aside from the argument of delusion, what is your counter-argument to my claim of hallucinations? After all, George Bush DID in fact claim to literally talk to God, an invisible being. What can you make of this?

Here's another source of information regarding the temporal lobes and their involvement in spiritual delusions:


CutterKick 02-20-2011 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtwizzy2k5 (Post 1352388)
Thesis statement: People who are extremely religious can be diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia and should be treated as mentally ill patients who should be separated from normal members of society.

Argument: According to the DSM-IV criteria for diagnosing schizophrenia, the following conditions must be met in a patient:

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Social or occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care, are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset.
4. Significant duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least six months. This six-month period must include at least one month of symptoms (or less, if symptoms remitted with treatment).

Furthermore, schizo sufferers often are very paranoid and have some sort of savior complex.

Example: George W.Bush is a good example of a famous person who was self-described as being highly religious. Let's check the criteria...

1. Delusions - Bush believed that there was an invisible being judging him and all people who sent his "son" 2000 years ago to be killed so that mankind can be "cleansed from sin" :confused03:

2. Hallucinations - Bush claimed numerous times that he actually "spoke to God" and that He "told him" to do certain things, such as invading Iraq.

3. Job Impairment - It's unquestionable that these delusions caused a severe drop in Bush's job performance, as he went on to make many poor decisions because God told him to (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc). Many historians have marked him as one of the worst presidents of all time.

4. Duration of symptoms - Bush has had his extreme religious conviction for many years.

Furthermore, Bush was highly paranoid and believed terrorists were always out to get us and come destroy the USA. It was this paranoia that led to the Iraq/Afghan invasions and is the reason why he created his color-coded terror alert system.
Also, Bush had a savior complex in believing that God was directing him to guide humanity in the right direction despite how much people hated and opposed him.


Conclusion: Bush is just one famous example, but my point stands that extremely religious people are really just suffering from paranoid schizophrenia and should be treated as such. Believing that the earth is 6,000 years old and that we are here because a girl named Eve ate a a forbidden apple is truly sad, and these people deserve proper medication and therapy just like all other schizo sufferers.
Think of the tragedies that could have been prevented (9/11 for instance) had these poor mentally ill patients received the proper attention they need. :(

1. Delusions, to say Religion is a delusion is an opinion which, can't be backed up completely. Without total proof of religion being lies, this statement means nothing.

2. Hallucinations, the majority of hallucinatioons in Religion are to do with born again Christians and convert many people just like you that had no belief in God but, were converted in a religion. There's usually other factors to these 'hallucinations' or 'near-death experiences' such as low oxygen supply. People tend not to think right without oxygen, so beliefs pay nothing into this.

3. Job imparment, you're throwing out a blind windmill statement with this to be honest. Being highly religious affects how you work? Look at Matt Hughes. A man who was the one of the most dominating fighters in history is extremely relgious as shown in The Ultimate Fighter Season 5. Hughes was the champion in a stacked division in one of the mentally challenging sports in the world. In fact, most Spanish/Brasillian athletes are highly religious as well and they seem to be doing just fine.

4. Duration of symptons, religious beliefs do not just pass away. They usually stay for a long period of time so, this has nothing of relevance to me.

Furthermore, using George Bush as an example shows that you are indeed biast. Of all Chirstians, you pick one of the dumbest to ever get recognition.

Also, saying I'm defending my religion isn't really true as I amen't highly religious. I am religious but, not to the point of trying and failing to convert others.

Voiceless 02-20-2011 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dtwizzy2k5 (Post 1365642)
What i mean is, there are many extreme religious people who are not members of a church (or place of worship) and that werent taught by their parents to believe their delusions. But rather, they may have picked up a book of myths and become out of touch with the reality of the world they live in.

Does it make a difference whether the information came from other people/ the Church or from books┐

I think I'm not familiar enough with current scientific researches on the topic to jump into the discussion, but this article might be interesting to you (it is also about reasearch on the temporal lobe):

BBC: "God on the Brain"

As video documentary:

(For those who don't want to see it splitted, but in one part may watch here on googlevideo)










joeymarvelous 10-30-2011 11:29 PM

The EXREMELY religious (experiencing visions, ect.) actually suffer from frontal lobe epilepsy. The more run of the mill religous wacko is more along the lines of grandiose delusional disorder, but the DSMIV sadly provides a convienient out for socially acceptable delusions.

BobbyCooper 10-31-2011 08:26 AM

It's all Propaganda in every Religion.. Hitler used the same manipulation and it worked well for him to become a mass murderer without justification.

The Japanese Emperor Hirohito called himself Godlike and it worked to manipulate an entire Nation to take over the inferior Asians like the Chinese.. Koreans..


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