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Old 08-24-2011, 03:43 PM   #11 (permalink)
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The bible does say how old the world is.

http://www.achievebalance.com/data/timeline/

In the bible it gives ages and deaths of bloodlines from adam all the way to the time of Christ. This allows us a reasonably accurate way of determining the time from the creation of Adam to modern times.

TL;DR

Adam was created 4097 years before the birth of Christ according to scripture +/- a 50/100years

http://www.hebroots.com/lul7_8.html

http://www.abetterhope.com/whois/gen-2.html

http://hisemissary.com/time.html
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by M.C View Post
You cannot, again I say, cannot use the bible to prove the bible, the same way you cannot use a book that says a dragon lives in your basement to prove a dragon lives in your basement, you must have outside evidence.

You need evidence, provable, testable evidence to prove something. You cannot say because you read it in a 2,000 year old book, it's true. You have to have outside evidence, that's the way evidence works, that's the way it always works.
provable, testable evidence outside of space and time? I'll concede the argument if that's what you need.

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If you come to me and ask me if I have a pet dragon, I say yes, do you believe me? If you do, you are extremely gullible. What I'd assume you'd do is say "prove it", not by my word, but by actual evidence, as I cannot prove I have a dragon just by saying I have a dragon.

The bible is the same, you cannot say God exists out of space and time because a book says he does, you need evidence that he does, and the bible is far not evidence. The bible is as much evidence as me saying I own a dragon is evidence that I own a dragon, it's silly and it's called Circular Reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning
So, The bible is often called God's word inside of itself. The bible never actually refers to the bible, but the books inside refer to themselves. Once again, the bible is not a book, it's a compilation of books written through history.

So, if I'm to prove the christian god outside of the bible, I'll concede that argument too because that also is impossible. Although, to me, that's pretty silly. I do not find that to be circular reasoning and I don't find your example valid.

If there was a dragon in your basement, I'd simply ask you to bring me to your basement so I can see the dragon. On the flip side, you want to hear what God says, you have to read his book.

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You need to either provide facts and then evidence to back up those facts, or just throw this one out of your debate, because what you're saying is your evidence is a bronze aged book written by men who knew little to nothing about how things work in reality.
So, to your my sources don't count as valid because it would appear you have a bias to books written my men in the bronze age. I think if you do that, you have to discredit many historians, atheist included, for acknowledging the fact that Jesus Christ rose. Which, to me, is the biggest evidence for the Christian God.



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You can believe that if you want, but you're wrong and incorrect. It has nothing to do with personal experience, the human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucination. We have 0, count it, 0 evidence or proof that anything "supernatural" exists. Absolutely nothing.
Well, first, I was not hallucinating. These are real experiences that were witnessed by crowds. Second, outside of Jesus Christ resurrection, your asking for evidence that exists outside of nature, which obviously no human can do. But, if it was provable, God would have to do away with faith, which is not in his nature.

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In any case, it certainly doesn't cause us to be sick. Again, the bible says disease and illness is caused by demonic possession. We know where illness and disease comes from, and it's not demonic possession, we know this as fact.
No, the bible does not say diseases and illnesses are caused by demonic possession. It simply says that it exists along with them. Never does it say it goes hand and hand, example...

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. (Matthew 4:23)

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First of all, Earth wasn't created in 7 (6) days. We know as fact, using an overwhelming amount of evidence and proof to back up the claim, that Earth is 4.5 billion years old, so God either doesn't know how to count, or the people who wrote the bible didn't know anything about how to actually test how old the Earth is (they didn't).

Second, you are correct that no one knows how long Adam and Eve were "in the garden", however, most creationists and Christians I have talked to, and have heard argue their point against science, is that the earth is 6,000 years old by adding together all the different areas where things appear, and track it back to Adam and Eve, which was apparently 6,000 years ago.
Most creationists doesn't apply to me. But please, I would like to go over the evidence with you, so please post some. I want to see the evidence first before attacking straw man

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If you don't want me to take the word of Christians and creationists, then there's nothing I can do, as I certainly can't go by the bible, seeing as it is full of false or incomplete claims, and can't prove itself.
Where are these false and incomplete claims? I'm still saving bible prophecy for later on in the debate mind you.

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So, when your God says "I never change", he's lying then? He actually does change even though he doesn't? He changes from book to book, never staying the same?

That pretty much goes against everything the bible claims God is, no?
Like I said, seems your having trouble identifying between laws given to jew and gentile. God does not change, but just because God gives instructions to certain people, it does not mean he's given those instructions to all people. This is especially true when it comes to old testament laws since the Torah was given to the Jews. Do you ever see Christians doing animal sacrifices?

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It doesn't matter, my statement is the same. You cannot pick and choose which points of the old testament to leave out and which to keep in. God is eternal (well, you seem to not think so based on the above point I made, but most say he is) and thus what's in the old testament counts for today as well.

You can't take the old testament laws out because they are nice and skip all the slavery, murder and death that God creates and says is okay.
Same as above. It would appear that you are picking and choosing at this point. Your ignoring the scriptures of what Jesus did and the changes it made when it comes to praising God, and your ignoring the difference between jew and gentile.

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Abortion, legally, is not killing children. Do you see anyone stabbing a child in the face for talking back to them, then everyone saying "well, he talked back, it's okay?".

That's the point I'm making, we don't stone our children to death anymore, 'cause unlike the bible, we've grown up.
Abortion is killing children, no matter what way you slice it. Legality has nothing to do with it. You are ending your childs life. Stoning is far more barbaric, but to say that one is better than the other would mean you'd need objective moral values, because if not, than it doesn't matter who you kill anyways.

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I can get a lot more if you wish, but I just copy/pasted my previous post on it.

God claims it's perfectly okay to **** and have slavery, he tells you what type of women you can enslave, and tells you who you can kill.

God is evil by today's standards.
I have something for that.

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

your definition of slavery is more modern and not the same kind of slavery practiced in ancient jewish culture. Source: http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...ery_bible.html

"First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today - in which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.1 Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath,2 slander a slave,3 have sex with another man's slave,4 or return an escaped slave.5 A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.6 In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".7"

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Really? Because there's no mentioning that you can't enslave people in the 10 commandments.

Also, the first 5 of the 10 commandments aren't laws in America.
Of course not all of them are in there, I never claimed they were all in there though.

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**** and murder is bad because WE claim it is bad. There doesn't have to be a magical guy in the sky to prevent us from doing these things.

We believe **** and murder is bad because it imposes on people's lives/rights. Rights WE created over thousands of years of evolution and social evolution, that we have put laws in place in order to protect them. WE, humans, people, man and woman, we created these rights and laws, we know we did because we have history of them being created.

At one point, **** and murder was perfectly acceptable, we did it all the time. Back in the bronze age and back before that, **** and murder was a casual thing. You could take any woman you wanted, Kings used to do it all the time.

Also, slaves have been a thing for the vast majority of our race and only recently (in comparison to how long our race has been here) have we stopped it, by secular means.

It's very easy to understand why we don't **** and murder, because we've grown up from bible times.
Like I said, **** and slavery (Slavery of this day and age mind you) are not supported in the bible, neither is murder. If you look at my verses provided above, God had every reason to destroy the nations he chose.

And as I said, just because WE find it morally wrong and evil, does it make it an immoral and evil act? If evil doesn't exist, than how can **** and murder be evil?

I see more has been posted, and I'll get to it. Especially Xebby's post (How are ya babe?!?!)
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Old 08-25-2011, 02:14 AM   #13 (permalink)
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provable, testable evidence outside of space and time? I'll concede the argument if that's what you need.
Then that's what you will have to do.

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So, The bible is often called God's word inside of itself. The bible never actually refers to the bible, but the books inside refer to themselves. Once again, the bible is not a book, it's a compilation of books written through history.

So, if I'm to prove the christian god outside of the bible, I'll concede that argument too because that also is impossible. Although, to me, that's pretty silly. I do not find that to be circular reasoning and I don't find your example valid.

If there was a dragon in your basement, I'd simply ask you to bring me to your basement so I can see the dragon. On the flip side, you want to hear what God says, you have to read his book.
Exactly, you would ask me to bring you to my basement and show you, physically, that I have a dragon. Saying I have a dragon is a wild, crazy claim, we can both agree on that I am sure, and if you read it in a book, even an old book that is combined text, that a dragon lives in the very spot my house is, you would still have to go and see for yourself to believe it.

If you saw no dragon, and I can't speak for you so correct me I'm wrong, but I'd assume you would say "this story is false, there is no dragon and, using common sense, dragons don't actually exist anyways". Now, in the same light, you are saying a book, or however you wish to put it, is saying that there is an invisible creature outside of space and time that created space and time, and that there's a heaven and demons and all this.

This is the same as the above part, you simply cannot use the bible to prove the bible, it's called circular reasoning and just doesn't work.

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So, to your my sources don't count as valid because it would appear you have a bias to books written my men in the bronze age. I think if you do that, you have to discredit many historians, atheist included, for acknowledging the fact that Jesus Christ rose. Which, to me, is the biggest evidence for the Christian God.
First, there is no evidence Jesus Rose outside of the bible. I'd love for you to link me some factual evidence that was printed by factual historians that went on to become great, well known historians throughout our history. Not religious historians, real historians.

Second, the reason why we know as a fact about actual, real historic people, is because we have, again, outside evidence to support the claim. There is 0 outside evidence to support 90% of what's in the bible, if not more, on the flip side, we have an overwhelming amount of evidence for real live historic people in our past, not only from direct historians, but from historians outside of the direct line. Again, not religious historians, real, actual, factual historians.

Did Jesus exist? Was there a man named Jesus? That very well could be. Was he the son of an almighty space being? Provide evidence outside of the bible to help your claim.

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Well, first, I was not hallucinating. These are real experiences that were witnessed by crowds. Second, outside of Jesus Christ resurrection, your asking for evidence that exists outside of nature, which obviously no human can do. But, if it was provable, God would have to do away with faith, which is not in his nature.
You know what else was witness by a crowd, millions in fact? John Edwards. He can apparently speak to the dead. Can he really do that? No, he cannot, we have studied it and created my tests around such acts and performances, every single time without fail they fall flat and cannot hold their merit.

There's 0 evidence, real, actual, factual evidence that anything supernatural exists, it's been tested countless times, and has never shown a positive claim.

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No, the bible does not say diseases and illnesses are caused by demonic possession. It simply says that it exists along with them. Never does it say it goes hand and hand, example...

Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. (Matthew 4:23)
Let's go with what you say.

Demons exist alongside of disease and illness. No, it does not. We know how disease and illness works, it has nothing to do with demons. We know this as fact, not opinion, it's not even debatable.

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Most creationists doesn't apply to me. But please, I would like to go over the evidence with you, so please post some. I want to see the evidence first before attacking straw man
Do you really need me to provide evidence of the earth being 4.5 billion years old? It's in pretty much every science book from grade 3 and up. It's very, very common knowledge. I mean, if you really want the evidence I can post it, but dude... there's literally almost as much evidence that earth is that old as there is that gravity exists.

As for you not being with most creationists, how do I pick who is right, you or the majority (that I've talked to and read/debated with)?

That's one of the major problems with debating the Christian religion, there's so many different forms of Christians you never know how one views one subject, and which view is right?

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Where are these false and incomplete claims? I'm still saving bible prophecy for later on in the debate mind you.
1. Snakes can talk
2. Demons exist and can possess you
3. The earth/life/universe was created in 7 days
4. Man was created from dust and woman from man's rib
5. Burning bushes talk

Notes:

1. Never, ever, ever has these been proven with any sort of evidence
2. Number 3 and 4 are factually incorrect, not possible, never happened, it's not debatable.

I only mentioned 5 as anymore might make this part a bit too long.

As for bible prophecy, I'll save you some time and let you know it won't fly here. Predictions given with an infinite amount of time don't impress me or any atheist. I can predict right now that America won't be called America someday in the future, and during this time a war will be taking place.

Guess what? I bet you given an infinite amount of time, this will come true.

Bible prophecies and predictions aren't evidence, as people predict things every single day, normal humans - every - single - day, and it's not that amazing.

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Like I said, seems your having trouble identifying between laws given to jew and gentile. God does not change, but just because God gives instructions to certain people, it does not mean he's given those instructions to all people. This is especially true when it comes to old testament laws since the Torah was given to the Jews. Do you ever see Christians doing animal sacrifices?
As I said to begin with, the old testament is the Christian's scapegoat.

There are passages said multiple times about ****, murder and slavery. Are you saying that these passages are only meant for jews? Jews are the only ones who are allowed to ****, own slaves and murder?

I'll give you the "evidence" from the bible showing what I mean 3 questions below as I don't need to do them twice.

As for sacrificing, animals, not that I know of. They do love to sacrifice people, though.

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"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you."
Trust me, I know your counter argument - "it was only a test". Well guess what? I don't care if it was a test or not, he was going to murder his son for his God. He had no doubts, he was 100% sure of it, as god demanded it. That's extremely evil, whether it was a test or not. Try that today and see what happens (more evidence of secular progression).

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Same as above. It would appear that you are picking and choosing at this point. Your ignoring the scriptures of what Jesus did and the changes it made when it comes to praising God, and your ignoring the difference between jew and gentile.
Again, read below for my response on old testament slavery/****/murder as typing it again won't be needed.

In fact, this question and the one above, can't they be combined with the other one? I think we have like 3 sections talking about the exact same thing now but in different form.

I honestly want your opinion if we should or not.

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Abortion is killing children, no matter what way you slice it. Legality has nothing to do with it. You are ending your childs life. Stoning is far more barbaric, but to say that one is better than the other would mean you'd need objective moral values, because if not, than it doesn't matter who you kill anyways.
Technically, it's not killing children. It's killing a form of life that maybe, someday, possible, in some way, might maybe create a human being. It's at the stage that you cannot even call it a human. It's life for sure, but it's not "human", and definitely not a "child".

Either way, do you see a kid telling a parent off, then getting stoned to death without punishment? No, you don't, we have secular laws against that now.

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I have something for that.

"It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 9:5)

"You shall not behave thus toward the LORD your God, for every abominable act which the LORD hates they have done for their gods; for they even burn their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. (Deuteronomy 12:31)

your definition of slavery is more modern and not the same kind of slavery practiced in ancient jewish culture. Source: http://www.godandscience.org/apologe...ery_bible.html

"First, we must recognize that the Bible does not say God supports slavery. In fact, the slavery described in the Old Testament was quite different from the kind of slavery we think of today - in which people are captured and sold as slaves. According to Old Testament law, anyone caught selling another person into slavery was to be executed:

"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

So, obviously, slavery during Old Testament times was not what we commonly recognize as slavery, such as that practiced in the 17th century Americas, when Africans were captured and forcibly brought to work on plantations. Unlike our modern government welfare programs, there was no safety-net for ancient Middle Easterners who could not provide a living for themselves. In ancient Israel, people who could not provide for themselves or their families sold them into slavery so they would not die of starvation or exposure. In this way, a person would receive food and housing in exchange for labor.

So, although there are rules about slavery in the Bible, those rules exist to protect the slave. Injuring or killing slaves was punishable - up to death of the offending party.1 Hebrews were commanded not to make their slave work on the Sabbath,2 slander a slave,3 have sex with another man's slave,4 or return an escaped slave.5 A Hebrew was not to enslave his fellow countryman, even if he owed him money, but was to have him work as a hired worker, and he was to be released in 7 years or in the year of jubilee (which occurred every 50 years), whichever came first.6 In fact, the slave owner was encouraged to "pamper his slave".7"
This is the part I was talking about before, where I'd answer the two questions about old testament laws. If you agree, we should focus all old testament in this little part, as talking about it in 3 parts is.. well, yeah, takes up a lot of time.

Now..
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If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT
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When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
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Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
How exactly is slavery not accepted?

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As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

This one has some really nice murder in it, along with the whole "take all the women for yourself" part.

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"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife. However, if later on you lose your liking for her, you shall give her her freedom, if she wishes it; but you shall not sell her or enslave her, since she was married to you under compulsion."
This one is nice as well. I love how you can forcefully take a woman into your home, and if you lose your interest in her, she can go FREE, but not if you don't stop loving her (that's slavery, btw).

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Like I said, **** and slavery (Slavery of this day and age mind you) are not supported in the bible, neither is murder. If you look at my verses provided above, God had every reason to destroy the nations he chose.

And as I said, just because WE find it morally wrong and evil, does it make it an immoral and evil act? If evil doesn't exist, than how can **** and murder be evil?

I see more has been posted, and I'll get to it. Especially Xebby's post (How are ya babe?!?!)
**** and murder is accepted in the bible, read above.

Who else finds it evil or good? Immoral or moral? You'd first have to prove that there is such thing as something other than us to provide this. You have yet to do so.

The only evidence/facts we have, is that we as people have created these morals and have evolved to accept them in our life.

We just recently stopped slavery. We, humans, stopped slavery. Literally about 200 years back. We made the rule to stop this, the same as we made the rule to stop **** and murder.
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:55 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Considering how hard it is to define the word "god", it's impossible to disprove that a god or gods exist, neither philosophically or scientifically. As someone before me wrote, there could be a "god" (whatever that is exactly) somewhere out there. But when somebody makes an extraordinary claim, (such as the existence o a god for instance), the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim, not the one denying it. Also, when I say "god" cannot be disproved, I'm obviously not talking about the judeo-christian-muslim God, which an be disproved both philosophically and scientifically.

A number of models for how the Big Bang could have happened without the laws of physics being violated have been presented by scientists, but unfortunately my knowledge of physics isn't enough to understand their calculations. However, when several hypotheses for a phenomenon exist, the general rule is to first examine the simplest one, i.e. the one most congruent with established scientific theories. And since the universe appears to be natural, a natural explanation is always simpler than an unnatural one.

Some people say that the beauty of the god hypothesis is that it cannot, should not, or doesn't have to be explained. However, that would reduce god to something that only consists of our gaps in scientific understanding, which means god shrinks as science progresses.

-----------------------------------------------

Regarding moral values, I don't see how they have anything to do with the god hypothesis. What we call moral values is a mixture of altruism and social control. That is, part of morals are instinctive while the rest is ingrained by the society where the individual grew up.

Altruism is common amongst mammals and birds living in groups, because it improves the survival chances for group individuals and thus provides an evolutionary advantage. It can be observed in animals as unintelligent as buffalo and vampire bats, but is more typical for intelligent animals such as dolphins, chimpanzees and humans. Solitary animal species do not typically display altruism.

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Old 08-25-2011, 10:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I think the reason this debate (as with many of this type) is going nowhere is you are both confusing theology with philosophy. The fallibility of the bible and the Christian religion has no impact on the debate about whether god exists.

I suppose if you could prove the bible was true then it would prove the existence of god, but that seems unlikely and in fact would kind of neuter the point of faith which is a central tenet of Christianity.

Indeed this is one of the big mistakes atheists like R Dawkins make. They think by showing how riddled with holes Christianity is they can disprove god. Well no actually all you have done is show the unlikelihood of a Christian God, or that if such a god existed he would not be worth worshipping.

On the other hand, offering an argument like the cosmological one (which has a number of flaws). Even if true does nothing to prove a Christian god. All it would do is show that the universe is not self creating. It is a hell of a leap from proving that something (energy is about all you might prove) caused the universe and saying that that energy spoke to Moses in the form of an incinerating shrub.

In response to the moral argument. Well, just because you are uncomfortable with the idea that morality is entirely subjective and dependent on the evolved values of a society is no reason to posit an omnipotent being. I’m afraid your discomfort with the idea of non-objective morals is no argument for god.

If you have a look at Leviathan by Hobbes or even some of Dawkins Selfish Gene work, or even Nietzsche’s Geneology of Morality, there are plenty of good hypothesis for how we got our society’s values without the need for a deity. I’m not saying I agree with any of those in particular just that your argument isn’t really an argument.

It is much easier to show the holes in Christianity without arguing whether God exists or not and just show that if the Christian God did exist he doesn’t seem worth worshipping. Personally I question why such a supposedly benevolent creature set up one intrinsically racist religion (Judaism) and another ( Christianity) claiming to offer salvation to mankind through its teachings knowing full well that these teachings would never reach millions of people who didn’t happen to live in the area around Galilee circa 30AD.

How long was it before the only possible way to get into heaven reached Africa, or the native Americans or even large parts of Europe. For those people who died hundreds of years before these teachings arrive the Christian God basically said ‘Ah bad luck well here’s an eternity in hell/purgatory’ – a just god then?

And you can do that with other things such as – Why was Jesus dying on the cross such a big sacrifice. Two things suggest plenty of people have sacrificed much more when they died than JC. First the thing that is truly daunting about death is the unknown, the terror that even if you believe in a religion deep down there is that thought that oblivion awaits on the other side. Now Jesus was the Son of God, he already knew what was on the other side so no daunting terror for him. Anyone of a thousand men or women who died for their faith made a much bigger sacrifice than JC.

Secondly he didn’t even go through the whole crucifixion. Sure being nailed to a cross for days while you slowly drown in your own fluids is incredibly horrible and drawn out. Well JC got stabbed with a spear to ease his passing half way through. So even out of the people who were crucified that day, he suffered less.

Or how exactly do we have free will when God says sure you can do all of these things which I have given you urges for but you will end up burning for eternity etc. Or how egotistical is this being that we have to thank him for everything in our life whenever we sit down to eat or anything good, but he gets no flack when shit happens. Yes Justin Bieber everything might possibly happen for a reason but if it does then those reasons are undoubtedly F’ed up – ah yes the Holocaust was all part of Gods big plan. Well God that is a terrible plan, even I can figure out a way to show humanity that trying to wipe out a race of people (your own chosen people no less) is a bad idea without actually letting some genocidal maniac kill 6million of them.

Personally I like the couple of teaching Jesus really emphasised – The golden Rule is a fantastic philosophy. It’s just all the crap Christians drag from other sources in the bible to justify their own prejudices that I have a problem with.

The actual is there a god isn’t there one should really be a purely philosophical debate at the moment. Science offers a lot to the argument on both sides, as does logical reasoning – religion (theology) not so much.

Well back to something useful. Apologies for how long winded that was I get carried away.

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Old 08-30-2011, 10:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I'm not religious by any means. My beliefs lie somewhere close to the realms of science, but lean also towards science fiction. I believe in a Universe which is cyclical, in which there are infinite big bangs, and big crunches, and it is an infinite cycle. Meaning that every possible outcome from the birth of the universe to the death of the universe happens. And happens an infinite amount of times. And even though i dont believe in an almighty being, i still believe the morales laid out by religion are important for us to lead good lives as civilised people.

Whether God exists or not is largely irrelevant. If someones belief in God makes them a better person, or gives them strength, hope, whatever, then God then becomes real - as a part of us. God as an almighty being is perhaps untrue. Who knows. But God can be made to be real by being a part of each and every one of us by the actions we take, the way we treat others, and the way in which we live our lives.
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Old 08-31-2011, 12:06 AM   #17 (permalink)
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This thread/debate has been an absolute pleasure to read.

I would like to contribute more, but I do feel as though M.C. has pretty much nailed down most of the points any secular humanist would make. But I will say a few things.

First, I do disagree with Hawkeye's point that atheists such as Dawkins have been inadvertently taking the wrong approach when challenging religion. I think any atheist accepts the fact that we cannot disprove god. No one can disprove anything (use M.C.'s basement dragon example or Dawkins' more well-known flying spaghetti monster). Our attempts to make the existence seem highly unlikely is exactly the point. We want to point out just how irrational it is to believe in a supernatural being like that. I agree with Hawkeye, we almost certainly won't be able to challenge the beliefs of fundamental religious people who are unwaveringly religiousn, but by pointing out how ridiculous and unlikely the idea is we can gain headway with many of the people who are "soft" when it comes to their religious beliefs.

A second point that is worth discussing is the overwhelming evidence in favor of evolution. At this point we have built up a stupendous amount of evidence that validates evolution. All creatures have evolved from lesser species and we are the distant cousins of other primates, and the even more distant cousins of all plants. There is plenty of science to support this, but a particularly "friendly" read can be found in Dawkins' "The Greatest Show on Earth", however, I also encourage you to read some of Stephen Gould's work. Given Spoken's repeated references to Adam and Eve, I am confident in my conclusion that his view of religion and God does not allow for evolution. This is a balatant rejection of scientific fact, and any good "theory" (and being loose with the term theory to the point that it loses all meaning) must be able to account for the fact of evolution when describing the existence of the human species. Interestingly, most religions have revised their doctrines to now allow for evolution in the form of "intelligent design". This is just another example of pious individuals being unable to explain a fact and, in turn, changing their perspective to fit it (M.C., again, provided other examples of this).

A final point I would like to discuss is the issue of morality. First, there is a credible evolutionary explanation for our morality-- we evolved it because it became beneficial for our survival stop engaging in many of these malicious behaviors. After a long period of socialization across generations, it became societal norms to not engage in such behavior. We just term it morality now because it fancies us. Second, the idea that we need a omnniscient and omnipotent power to keep us from committing **** and murder is an unflattering and perverse view of humans. By taking such a stance you are accepting the idea of original sin and believe that as children we need to be scared out of committing such acts, or we face eternal damnation. Moreover, the implication is that we are only good to others (we don't **** and murder) because we see it as beneficial to us in the long-term (we go to heaven). And if such a reward was not available to us we would go about our sinful ways. It is hardly being "objectively moral" (as Spoken put it) if the only reason you are good to others is to get something in return for yourself. The question then is, would people engage in **** and murder if we were hypothetically able to prove that God does not exist? If the consensus on this question is yes, then people do need God to have morals. If the answer is no, which I believe it almost universally would be, then no God is needed for morality, and our morality is derived from other (social) institutions.
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Old 08-31-2011, 01:13 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I love and hate this argument. Not just the specific one going on in this thread, but the never ending argument of does it or does it not exist. I love it because it makes people really think about life and search for answers. I hate it because the answers arent there and probably never will be. Im more of a wait and see guy. I hope that something awesome happens when I die and am super afraid of the possibility of this being my only run at things. I dont like the idea of the lights just being out when I die. Above all else, I except the fact that its impossible to know what really happens when you die. Thats why I find atheism as crazy as christianity. People are making assumptions about something with zero evidence to support either claim. No one really knows. I dont think any living person will ever know.
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Old 08-31-2011, 06:56 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Science says a large proportion of the universe is made up of "dark matter"

Something we cant see, hear or detect in any way. Something we assume is there because of other unexplainable factors.

Sounds to me like Science is as ridiculous as religion.

As the gentleman above me said. We dont know shit about shit. The only absolutely consistent thing that Science has done over the years, is disprove itself. The truth of the universe is so far away from human comprehension, how anybody can assume anything to be true of false, with any degree of certainty, is beyond me.

Its like the goldfish in its bowl theorising as to how shit works outside the bowl. Thats what scientists and religious types are doing. My advice would be, give up and enjoy the one thing you know does exist: You, your life and this glorious planet.
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Old 08-31-2011, 07:33 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Science says a large proportion of the universe is made up of "dark matter"

Something we cant see, hear or detect in any way. Something we assume is there because of other unexplainable factors.

Sounds to me like Science is as ridiculous as religion.
No it's not. Science says "we don't know what it is yet, so we use the term 'dark matter' as a place holder until we know better". That's a whole different approach than saying "God created the universe as it's written in the bible. End of story"

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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
As the gentleman above me said. We dont know shit about shit. The only absolutely consistent thing that Science has done over the years, is disprove itself.
Yes, that's what science is about. One of the main principles of science is falsification. Scientist witness a phenomenon, so based on beforehand knowledge they come up with a theory to explain that phenomenon. Then comes the fun part: they try to disprove their own theory (other scientist join in in that trial). And as long as the theory works they assume that it is the most likely explanation of the phenomenon.


Science and Religion are completely different approaches. Science is scepticism also towards their own theories, religion is blind believe even against better evidence.
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