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Old 08-31-2011, 08:21 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
Science and Religion are completely different approaches. Science is scepticism also towards their own theories, religion is blind believe even against better evidence.
Yes. But, as I pointed out in my earlier first post, evidence suggests a universe so unfathomably large that the possibilities are endless. With this in mind, how can anybody be sure that the Earth and humans on it is anything more than a fishtank for some other beings? Evidence suggests there is in all likelyhood creatures/beings/life out there that is technologically vastly more evolved and advanced then human beings. These lifeforms could be capable of anything, including creating other life. And yet science will never concede this. that we might be but the simplest of amoebas in comparison to whats out there.

So, I still feel Science is as blind as religion. By its own admission, the vastness of whats out there is incomprehendable. Therefore, science needs to also accept that there are forces out there that are also incomprehendable/unimaginable.

We will NEVER as the human race ever physically go and visit any more then 0.000000000000001% of the universe. How is this a postion to draw any assumptions from?
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:14 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Yes. But, as I pointed out in my earlier first post, evidence suggests a universe so unfathomably large that the possibilities are endless. With this in mind, how can anybody be sure that the Earth and humans on it is anything more than a fishtank for some other beings? Evidence suggests there is in all likelyhood creatures/beings/life out there that is technologically vastly more evolved and advanced then human beings. These lifeforms could be capable of anything, including creating other life. And yet science will never concede this. that we might be but the simplest of amoebas in comparison to whats out there.
You are confusing things. First, science does concede that there is almost certainly life out there. Just given the vast number of planets that we know about in the universe, probabilistically speaking there should be thousands of other planets of life. If such planets exist, however, they almost certainly evolve in a manner similar to that described by Darwinian evolution. There is however, no evidence that the suspected life out there has technology more evolved and advanced than ours.I am not sure where you got this claim from, but I would be interested in what evidence you are talking about. Lets assume for a minute that you are correct, and there is a life-form out there that can create life. This is not a God as described by religions. This is simply just a highly advanced life forms. This life form would not be eternal, and no single life form would be omniscient and ommnipotent like Judeo-Christians describe. Moreover, this says nothing about afterlife, and, in fact, there would still surely be no afterlife.

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So, I still feel Science is as blind as religion. By its own admission, the vastness of whats out there is incomprehendable. Therefore, science needs to also accept that there are forces out there that are also incomprehendable/unimaginable.
Yes. Science, unlike religion, admits that we don't know everything. But we are trying. That is the point. Religioun encourages us to not expand our understanding of the universe and life, but to merely accept the stories that are written iin the greatest fiction story of all time. We do accept that some things in the universe are difficult to accept (an infinite universe, no afterlife). It is difficult for our rather simply brain to understand these things.

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We will NEVER as the human race ever physically go and visit any more then 0.000000000000001% of the universe. How is this a postion to draw any assumptions from?
What assumptions are you talking about here? If the issue I am trying to draw conclusions from is the origins of man, it has little to do with the .999999999999% of the universe. There is a plethora of archaeological and DNA evidence that shows we have evolved from a lesser species. If I wanted to know how old the world is we can look at good science that uses carbon dating. To be sure, we have a lot to learn about the universe that is interesting, but there is plenty of evidence on this Earth that contradicts many of the core tenets of major religions.

There is almost certainly no God or afterlife. Go enjoy life while we have it. And always be a good human.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:27 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Yes. But, as I pointed out in my earlier first post, evidence suggests a universe so unfathomably large that the possibilities are endless. With this in mind, how can anybody be sure that the Earth and humans on it is anything more than a fishtank for some other beings?
The thing is: scientists don't. They don't claim to know what's "outside" the universe. But out of repeatable observations they have evidence that the laws of physics work the same way here on Earth as they do a hundred thousand light-years away. So at least scientists get a pretty good idea of what's going on in the fish tank, while religion rely their "truth" on a book written by humans a some thousand years ago with no repeatable evidence.

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Evidence suggests there is in all likelyhood creatures/beings/life out there that is technologically vastly more evolved and advanced then human beings.
What evidence¿

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These lifeforms could be capable of anything, including creating other life. And yet science will never concede this. that we might be but the simplest of amoebas in comparison to whats out there.

So, I still feel Science is as blind as religion. By its own admission, the vastness of whats out there is incomprehendable. Therefore, science needs to also accept that there are forces out there that are also incomprehendable/unimaginable.
Science does accept that it knows and sees only little of what is there. It only tries to see a little more step by step while religion claims to have "the truth(TM)". Big difference in my book.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:36 AM   #24 (permalink)
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You are confusing things. First, science does concede that there is almost certainly life out there. Just given the vast number of planets that we know about in the universe, probabilistically speaking there should be thousands of other planets of life. If such planets exist, however, they almost certainly evolve in a manner similar to that described by Darwinian evolution. There is however, no evidence that the suspected life out there has technology more evolved and advanced than ours.I am not sure where you got this claim from, but I would be interested in what evidence you are talking about. Lets assume for a minute that you are correct, and there is a life-form out there that can create life. This is not a God as described by religions. This is simply just a highly advanced life forms. This life form would not be eternal, and no single life form would be omniscient and ommnipotent like Judeo-Christians describe. Moreover, this says nothing about afterlife, and, in fact, there would still surely be no afterlife.



Yes. Science, unlike religion, admits that we don't know everything. But we are trying. That is the point. Religioun encourages us to not expand our understanding of the universe and life, but to merely accept the stories that are written iin the greatest fiction story of all time. We do accept that some things in the universe are difficult to accept (an infinite universe, no afterlife). It is difficult for our rather simply brain to understand these things.



What assumptions are you talking about here? If the issue I am trying to draw conclusions from is the origins of man, it has little to do with the .999999999999% of the universe. There is a plethora of archaeological and DNA evidence that shows we have evolved from a lesser species. If I wanted to know how old the world is we can look at good science that uses carbon dating. To be sure, we have a lot to learn about the universe that is interesting, but there is plenty of evidence on this Earth that contradicts many of the core tenets of major religions.

There is almost certainly no God or afterlife. Go enjoy life while we have it. And always be a good human.
Are you seriously suggesting that without knowing barely anything about the universe that houses us and that governs the very physical laws we exist within, we can conclude as to the true origins of man? For all we know, we've been planted here.

And, considering our current civilization is 10000 years old, and that in that piddly amount of time we have gone from cavemen to what we have today... In all likely hood there are species of intelligent life out there that have existed for millions of years longer then us. With that in mind how can you say with any confidence that:-

Quote:
"There is however, no evidence that the suspected life out there has technology more evolved and advanced than ours."

Way I see it, if we can create an environment where we keep animals, and to them, that environment is their universe?? Well... there's nothing to say the same isnt being done to human beings and we dont even know it.

I dont believe in god by the way. I simply believe in possibilities.
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Old 08-31-2011, 09:42 AM   #25 (permalink)
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What evidence¿
The evolution of the human race is my evidence. See my above post. To summarize... if we can go from cavemen to technologically advanced ( relatively speaking ) in 10000 years, which is an absurdly small amount of time, universally... Then what of the possibilities of life that was advanced over a million years ago. We know it must be out there, somewhere, right? There is no way Im going to believe the whole god damn universe is evolving in tandem with the human race, technology wise. No way. If it is, then I challenge science to explain that?!
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:27 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Are you seriously suggesting that without knowing barely anything about the universe that houses us and that governs the very physical laws we exist within, we can conclude as to the true origins of man? For all we know, we've been planted here.

And, considering our current civilization is 10000 years old, and that in that piddly amount of time we have gone from cavemen to what we have today... In all likely hood there are species of intelligent life out there that have existed for millions of years longer then us. With that in mind how can you say with any confidence that:-

"There is however, no evidence that the suspected life out there has technology more evolved and advanced than ours."
He is right. There is no evidence, there is only a theoretical possibility. That's a difference.

Also, we may have evolved from caveman to homo sapiens internetensis in 10.000 years, which indeed is but a pure fragment of time in universal standards, but we needed 4,6 Billion years to transform from atomic matter to organic acid molecules to living cells and from there evolve to cavemen. That's about a third of the Universe's age.


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Way I see it, if we can create an environment where we keep animals, and to them, that environment is their universe?? Well... there's nothing to say the same isnt being done to human beings and we dont even know it.

I dont believe in god by the way. I simply believe in possibilities.
It is indeed possible that there is life out there so much evolved that we cannot significantly interact with it, like amoeba have a hard time interacting with humans, BUT that's still in no way comparable to a deity as proclaimed by the religions. Also, if there is a higher evolved life form, it is questionable whether it is worship worthy knowing that it keeps us only in a test tube.
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:44 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
He is right. There is no evidence, there is only a theoretical possibility. That's a difference.

Also, we may have evolved from caveman to homo sapiens internetensis in 10.000 years, which indeed is but a pure fragment of time in universal standards, but we needed 4,6 Billion years to transform from atomic matter to organic acid molecules to living cells and from there evolve to cavemen. That's about a third of the Universe's age.




It is indeed possible that there is life out there so much evolved that we cannot significantly interact with it, like amoeba have a hard time interacting with humans, BUT that's still in no way comparable to a deity as proclaimed by the religions. Also, if there is a higher evolved life form, it is questionable whether it is worship worthy knowing that it keeps us only in a test tube.
Aside from the evolutionary progress of us vs other life...

I agree that any advanced life out there is not comparable to man-made images of some kind of god. I'm 100% with you. For me, there is no possibility of the version of god worshipped in organized religion actually existing. It's a man made concept. That much is clear. But theres no smoke without fire, and I'm willing to believe the human race may have had interactions with advanced life somewhere in history. Interactions that have been lost in time and replaced with the modern religious rubbish we have to put up with today. NOT saying these things have happened, but I'm open to the suggestion. Chinese whispers can end up a big old mess over thousands of years!
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Old 08-31-2011, 10:59 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Are you seriously suggesting that without knowing barely anything about the universe that houses us and that governs the very physical laws we exist within, we can conclude as to the true origins of man? For all we know, we've been planted here.

And, considering our current civilization is 10000 years old, and that in that piddly amount of time we have gone from cavemen to what we have today... In all likely hood there are species of intelligent life out there that have existed for millions of years longer then us. With that in mind how can you say with any confidence that:-
That is exactly what I am saying. My point is simply that we have considerable evidence that we have evolved from lesser organisms, and can trace our family tree back to very simple organisms. That is true. Given this, for your assertion that we have been planted here as some muse for some higher life form, they would have had to place us here initially as simple organism and then let us evolve over hundreds of thousands of years to what we are today. That is logically inconsistent with your idea. Thus, the evidence that we have here on Earth does not line up with your idea at all, and having knowledge on the greater Universe is not necessary to address your question. That is my point.

Quote:
Quote:
"There is however, no evidence that the suspected life out there has technology more evolved and advanced than ours."

Way I see it, if we can create an environment where we keep animals, and to them, that environment is their universe?? Well... there's nothing to say the same isnt being done to human beings and we dont even know it.

I dont believe in god by the way. I simply believe in possibilities.
See above.


I think we share some similar views. But, and correct me if I am wrong, you seem to argue that there could not be a chicken without an egg. Put differently, we had to have come from somewhere, because it is illogical to believe that life just happened. For you, we came from some other life forms in the universe. The question then is, where did those life forms come from? Other higher life forms somewhere else in the universe?

It really doesn't fit within our mental capacity to believe that life can come from nothing. Realize, of course, that the process is much slower and complex than most people imagine. However, there have been some studies that have shown that simple life can be formed when combining some gases, water, and electrical activity into a space (which is what nearly all scientists believe the Earth was like when the first forms of life appeared on this planet). Those smaller life forms then evolved, some actually attached to each other in a symbiotic relationship, and eventually they began to form the more complex multi-cell organisms that became the even more complex multi-cell organisms, that became....
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Old 08-31-2011, 11:11 AM   #29 (permalink)
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I think we share some similar views. But, and correct me if I am wrong, you seem to argue that there could not be a chicken without an egg. Put differently, we had to have come from somewhere, because it is illogical to believe that life just happened. For you, we came from some other life forms in the universe. The question then is, where did those life forms come from? Other higher life forms somewhere else in the universe?

It really doesn't fit within our mental capacity to believe that life can come from nothing. Realize, of course, that the process is much slower and complex than most people imagine. However, there have been some studies that have shown that simple life can be formed when combining some gases, water, and electrical activity into a space (which is what nearly all scientists believe the Earth was like when the first forms of life appeared on this planet). Those smaller life forms then evolved, some actually attached to each other in a symbiotic relationship, and eventually they began to form the more complex multi-cell organisms that became the even more complex multi-cell organisms, that became....
sorry friend... you misunderstand. I absolutely dont believe that we had to come from somewhere. I'm willing to believe that its a possibility. Just as I'm willing to believe that we have zero connection to anything greater then us. My main point is that the universe is huuuge and filled with lots of elements we don't understand. For example, apparently, Dark matter affects light and gravity, and yet science still looks through its telescopes and draws conclusions as to the age of the universe by looking at star positions, light spectrum composition and trajectories. But I say, if "dark matter" is out there, distorting light and gravity, then anything we observe from earth could be completely distorted also, right? So, then how do we know anything about shit thats light years away? Big bang? Beginnings? Endings?? Its all speculative nonsense. I am just as likely to believe in a white bearded man floating in the cosmos, as I am regards some of the stuff Science tells us about the deep universe. Both are ridiculous to me.
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Old 08-31-2011, 11:40 AM   #30 (permalink)
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sorry friend... you misunderstand. I absolutely dont believe that we had to come from somewhere. I'm willing to believe that its a possibility. Just as I'm willing to believe that we have zero connection to anything greater then us. My main point is that the universe is huuuge and filled with lots of elements we don't understand. For example, apparently, Dark matter affects light and gravity, and yet science still looks through its telescopes and draws conclusions as to the age of the universe by looking at star positions, light spectrum composition and trajectories. But I say, if "dark matter" is out there, distorting light and gravity, then anything we observe from earth could be completely distorted also, right? So, then how do we know anything about shit thats light years away? Big bang? Beginnings? Endings?? Its all speculative nonsense. I am just as likely to believe in a white bearded man floating in the cosmos, as I am regards some of the stuff Science tells us about the deep universe. Both are ridiculous to me.
Very abstract thinking here, and far too complex for my rather simple mind . I am not overly familiar with the science on the universe, dark matter, etc. Going back to the topic, and to the origin of humans (which I know you will say is inseparable from the origins of the universe, and I agree), the question I am interested in addressing, and one that is particularly relevant to the topic of the thread, is where did man come from?

As a proponent of science I will never say that it is 100% impossible that God does not exist. Such a statement goes against everything I believe in in science. But I can say it is almost certain that He/She does not exist. And I do not believe that is it "just as likely" that a bearded man in the cosmos created man (and the Earth) as it is that these things developed in the ways accepted by the scientific community (evolution, and even a "big bang" type event). There are a lot of things that we don't know, and maybe our views on the origins of the universe will change considerably over time. But it is much more likely, at this time, that the universe started with a big bang that it is that God created it for the purpose of creating man in His image.
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