Does God Exist? Christian vs Atheist debate - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
The Debate Club debating in a friendly environment

Closed Thread

Old 08-22-2011, 04:56 PM   #1 (permalink)
Super Heavyweight
 
SpoKen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 4,601
SpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF Material
Does God Exist? Christian vs Atheist debate

I know that debates on religion tend to get heated (They get heated) but this a debate among friends first. Please, stray away from personal insults and attacks.

Please read the rules here: http://www.mmaforum.com/debate-club/...ules-read.html
And guidelines here: http://www.mmaforum.com/debate-club/...read-info.html

This debate falls under the category of normal debate so any and all are welcome to chime in.

So, without further nonsense, on to the debate!

Does God Exist?

"1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. 2 The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause." Quote taken from Dr. William Lane Craig.

Did the universe have a beginning, or has it just always been?

"The essence of the big bang cosmology is an expanding universe. The redshift of the light from galaxies is proportional to their distance (as inferred from brightness). No cause of galaxy redshift other than a velocity away from the observer was considered plausible, so Hubble's result was taken to mean that, the farther away from us a galaxy is, the faster it moves away from us. Hence, the overall universe had to be expanding." Quote taken from: http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/Di...ABeginning.asp

Let me start with the cosmological argument. There are many good reasons why the universe began to exist. Philosophically, the thought of an infinite past seems pretty unrealistic. If the universe never began to exist, that would mean the the number of past events will in our universe are infinite. But mathematicians recognize that the existence of an actual infinite number leads to self contradictions. For example, what is infinity minus infinity? Get the point? This shows that infinity is just an idea in your mind, not something that exists in reality. What this also shows is that the number of past events in the universe is finite, therefore the series of past events can't go on forever, which means the universe must have begun to exist. Which is where the big bang comes in.
.
What makes the big bang so interesting is that is represents the origin of the universe from literally nothing. For all matter and energy, space and time all came in to being at the big bang. I think this puts the atheist in an awkward position, because as an atheist you have to believe that the universe came from nothing, by nothing. But surely that doesn't make sense, since out of nothing nothing comes. So why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? Where did it come from? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.

Now, as the cause of space and time, this being must be an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being of unfathomable power. Moreover, it must be personal as well. Why? Because the cause must be beyond time and space. Therefore it cannot be physical or material.

There are only 2 kinds of things that fit this description. Either an abstract object, like numbers, or else a personal mind. But abstract objects can't cause anything, therefore it follows that the cause of the universe is a transcended, intelligent mind. Therefore the cosmological argument gives us a creator of the universe.

Another argument is the moral argument. If God doesn't exist, than objective moral values Also don't exist. By objective moral values I mean moral values which are valid and binding whether we believe in them or not. Many theist and atheist agree that if God doesn't exist, than moral values are not objective in this way. Michael Ruse (Philosopher of biology) once said "Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction and any deeper meaning is illusory." Like Professor Ruse I just don't see how in the absence of God, the morality that has emerged among these imperfectly evolved primates known as humans is objective. For example, without objective moral values, acts such as **** and murder only prove to be socially taboo, but not truly immoral since we morality itself is nonexistent without God. On the atheist view there is nothing really WRONG with **** and murder.

But the problem is, objective moral values DO exist and deep down we all know it. Actions like **** and murder aren't just socially unacceptable behavior they are moral abominations. Somethings at least are really wrong. Therefore, logically it leads to conclusion that God exists.

I'll end the OP on this note. Rather than attacking straw man, I'll see what awaits me in the rebuttals.
__________________

Sweet sig by Life B EZ


I feel like I get paid way to much money, but not enough -Nick Diaz
SpoKen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 08-22-2011, 05:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
M.C
Filthy Casuals
 
M.C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 11,040
M.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the system
I will take each point as they come, to keep it all neat and organized.

Quote:
"1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause. 2 The universe began to exist. 3. Therefore, the universe has a cause." Quote taken from Dr. William Lane Craig.

Did the universe have a beginning, or has it just always been?

"The essence of the big bang cosmology is an expanding universe. The redshift of the light from galaxies is proportional to their distance (as inferred from brightness). No cause of galaxy redshift other than a velocity away from the observer was considered plausible, so Hubble's result was taken to mean that, the farther away from us a galaxy is, the faster it moves away from us. Hence, the overall universe had to be expanding." Quote taken from: http://metaresearch.org/cosmology/Di...ABeginning.asp

Let me start with the cosmological argument. There are many good reasons why the universe began to exist. Philosophically, the thought of an infinite past seems pretty unrealistic. If the universe never began to exist, that would mean the the number of past events will in our universe are infinite. But mathematicians recognize that the existence of an actual infinite number leads to self contradictions. For example, what is infinity minus infinity? Get the point? This shows that infinity is just an idea in your mind, not something that exists in reality. What this also shows is that the number of past events in the universe is finite, therefore the series of past events can't go on forever, which means the universe must have begun to exist. Which is where the big bang comes in.
.
What makes the big bang so interesting is that is represents the origin of the universe from literally nothing. For all matter and energy, space and time all came in to being at the big bang. I think this puts the atheist in an awkward position, because as an atheist you have to believe that the universe came from nothing, by nothing. But surely that doesn't make sense, since out of nothing nothing comes. So why does the universe exist instead of just nothing? Where did it come from? There must have been a cause which brought the universe into being.

Now, as the cause of space and time, this being must be an uncaused, timeless, spaceless, immaterial being of unfathomable power. Moreover, it must be personal as well. Why? Because the cause must be beyond time and space. Therefore it cannot be physical or material.

There are only 2 kinds of things that fit this description. Either an abstract object, like numbers, or else a personal mind. But abstract objects can't cause anything, therefore it follows that the cause of the universe is a transcended, intelligent mind. Therefore the cosmological argument gives us a creator of the universe.
If everything that exists must be created/had a cause, then that means God himself must have been created/have a cause.

A common example used by theists (not saying you are using it exactly, but it helps get my point across) is the watchmaker analogy.

"If you find a watch on the road and pick it up, you instantly realize that this watch must have been created. Complex things cannot exist without a creator to design it".

This is very, very easy to debunk. If complex things require a creator/cause, and if God is far more complex than a watch or humans or anything we know of, then that means God must have been created by an even more complex being, and that that being must have been created by an even greater complex being, and so on and so forth.

The argument that something cannot come from nothing is also not correct. We have observed many times using quantum theory and mechanics, of particles and other matter popping into existence without creation.

Quote:
There is also a notable phenomenon observed in quantum mechanics. Particles composed of quarks such as protons, neutrons, positrons, etc have been observed popping into existence from nowhere and leaving again just as fast. Such particles “appear” in a vacuum where no other matter or energy exists. At the quantum level, even empty space is not truly empty but is seething with activity; particles are constantly popping in and out of existence everywhere. In pair creation, a particle and its antimatter partner seem to “appear” (see Bosons). This is cutting edge quantum mechanics research. The Large Hadron Collider in Switzlerand was built and is just recently up and running in the search for the Higgs-Boson particle.
http://liberatedmind.com/2009/10/can...-from-nothing/

The question of "why does this happen?" has yet to be answered, and may never be answered, but that does not mean that there is a being that created it, it just means given our level of technology at this point, we can only know so much. Back when the bible was written, people thought the world was flat, that disease/illness was caused by demonic possession, etc.

Just because we don't 'yet' have the answers to why, doesn't mean we won't someday, but we generally do have the answers as to "how".

As a side note - you're a Christian. The bible says the universe is 6,000 years old. That is what your God claims. It is a fact, however, that the universe is around 13 billion years old, and earth itself is no less than 4.5 billion years old. This is not a theory, this is a scientific fact.

Quote:
Another argument is the moral argument. If God doesn't exist, than objective moral values Also don't exist. By objective moral values I mean moral values which are valid and binding whether we believe in them or not. Many theist and atheist agree that if God doesn't exist, than moral values are not objective in this way. Michael Ruse (Philosopher of biology) once said "Morality is just an aid to survival and reproduction and any deeper meaning is illusory." Like Professor Ruse I just don't see how in the absence of God, the morality that has emerged among these imperfectly evolved primates known as humans is objective. For example, without objective moral values, acts such as **** and murder only prove to be socially taboo, but not truly immoral since we morality itself is nonexistent without God. On the atheist view there is nothing really WRONG with **** and murder.

But the problem is, objective moral values DO exist and deep down we all know it. Actions like **** and murder aren't just socially unacceptable behavior they are moral abominations. Somethings at least are really wrong. Therefore, logically it leads to conclusion that God exists.
This is actually a lot easier to answer than the previous argument for the case of God.

I'm going to base this off the Christian theology, as that's what you are debating as and that is the God that you believe in.

The bible says that both slavery, murder, and **** are all condoned and acceptable.

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way
-Leviticus 25:44-46

Quote:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Quote:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment
- Zechariah 14:1-2

Quote:
He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.- Exodus 21:15
Quote:
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:17
Quote:
The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead - Exodus 12:29-30
If the bible is a representation of moral behavior, then the bible is quite simply the most evil moral rule book for moral behavior known to man.

Back in our early years, there was a lot more acts of ****, murder, slavery, etc, and if we all have a moral code that these things are "wrong" built within us, then why did, for the vast majority of our race, accept and willingly take part in the acts of such things as ****, murder, slavery?

The reason why we don't do these things as much now and have laws against is, is because of the evolution of our society. It is by secular means that we have grown. As we have advanced in technology, science, and sociability, we have step by step removed such things from our civilizations. It is by secular means over thousands of years that we have evolved our society/morals to what they are now.

If you are talking about a different set of morals, you will have to explain them, as I am unaware of any morals outside of the the normal human morals that we take part in.
__________________


“Anna, my strong, terrifying Anna.” -Cas
"You lack the requisite spine and testicular fortitude to study under me" -Elodin
M.C is offline  
Old 08-22-2011, 06:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
Bantamweight
 
MMAnWEED's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 910
MMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level nowMMAnWEED is on another level now
I've read both of your points and I will take it upon myself to act as a third party if you will.

I'm agnostic and the definition for agnosticism is the following:

Quote:
The view that knowledge of whether or not God exists is unattainable, that we cannot be justified in believing either that God does exist or that he does not.
Now as MC has went over:

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
If everything that exists must be created/had a cause, then that means God himself must have been created/have a cause.

A common example used my theists (not saying you are using it exactly, but it helps get my point across) is the watchmaker analogy.

"If you find a watch on the road and pick it up, you instantly realize that this watch must have been created. Complex things cannot exist without a creator to design it".

This is very, very easy to debunk. If complex things require a creator/cause, and if God is far more complex than a watch or humans or anything we know of, then that means God must have been created by an even more complex being, and that that being must have been created by an even greater complex being, and so on and so forth.
I absolutely agree with this as a stance against the belief of a God and I'll add that many theists (not necessarily you OP) have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our day to day experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favour of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?

Of course on the other hand there is the argument of uncertainty. There is plenty of incorporation of mathematics and science into the backing of beliefs but the truth is, we are constantly finding out that equations thought originally to be true are now being disproved. Point is, our mind is constantly developing and to completely rule out the existence of a God through logic is very fallible considering logic is never set in stone.
MMAnWEED is offline  
Old 08-22-2011, 09:08 PM   #4 (permalink)
Middleweight
 
Voiceless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Neo-Babylon
Posts: 2,813
Voiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By AllVoiceless Is Beloved By All
I don't want to interrupt the interesting debate (I'm not yet sure whether my English is sufficient to enter maybe later), so just a side note.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
Back when the bible was written, people thought the world was flat
Actually, while back in the days when the early parts of the bible were written there indeed existed concepts of a flat Earth, but from Hellenistic antiquity on, almost no educated people thought the world was flat. Pythagoras in 6 BCE was prominent to advocate the Earth being a sphere, so was Aristotle in 4 BCE using ship's sails being hidden by the horizon as one of his main arguments. And in 3 BCE Eratosthenes already did an astonishingly accurate calculation of Earth's circumference.

For later Christians Aristotle was such an authority in science that they accepted his sphere concept of the Earth.
Voiceless is offline  
Old 08-23-2011, 02:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
Super Heavyweight
 
SpoKen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 4,601
SpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF Material
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
I will take each point as they come, to keep it all neat and organized.



If everything that exists must be created/had a cause, then that means God himself must have been created/have a cause.

A common example used by theists (not saying you are using it exactly, but it helps get my point across) is the watchmaker analogy.

"If you find a watch on the road and pick it up, you instantly realize that this watch must have been created. Complex things cannot exist without a creator to design it".

This is very, very easy to debunk. If complex things require a creator/cause, and if God is far more complex than a watch or humans or anything we know of, then that means God must have been created by an even more complex being, and that that being must have been created by an even greater complex being, and so on and so forth.
That would be true if God existed within the parameters of time. God doesn't need a creator because was never created. He doesn't have a beginning because he was there before the beginning.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:13


Quote:
The argument that something cannot come from nothing is also not correct. We have observed many times using quantum theory and mechanics, of particles and other matter popping into existence without creation.
I have no doubt that particles can spawn in environment with space and time, but how would these particles spawn without space and time? Remember, everything came from the big bang, things coming after the fact is to be expected, is it not?

Quote:
http://liberatedmind.com/2009/10/can...-from-nothing/

The question of "why does this happen?" has yet to be answered, and may never be answered, but that does not mean that there is a being that created it, it just means given our level of technology at this point, we can only know so much. Back when the bible was written, people thought the world was flat, that disease/illness was caused by demonic possession, etc.
A couple things wrong with this. First, the bible never claimed the world was flat, but circular. Note, the hebrew language did not have a word for sphere, so circle was used.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.(Job 26:7)

The only thing I can think of that would be close to a reference to the earth being flat is Revelation 7:1:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

But, new testaments scholars have agreed that this is a reference to north, south, east, and west. So the claim that people in the bible thought the earth was flat is just false.

On top of that, there are hundreds of examples in the 4 gospels where they identify if someone is suffering from illness or from demons, Jesus curing both of course. But they didn't attribute all cases of illness to demons, that statement is also false.

Quote:
Just because we don't 'yet' have the answers to why, doesn't mean we won't someday, but we generally do have the answers as to "how".
You don't though, Atheist have no idea how the big bang started. Christians have an answer, but there is no way we can prove it. So, what can be said there.

Quote:
As a side note - you're a Christian. The bible says the universe is 6,000 years old. That is what your God claims. It is a fact, however, that the universe is around 13 billion years old, and earth itself is no less than 4.5 billion years old. This is not a theory, this is a scientific fact.
That's also a false claim, many christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old because of genesis 1 and on, when the earth was created in seven days. 2 things to note about this though.

1. The length of a day in genesis is not defined. How can you have a day without the sun?

2. It doesn't say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, nor did it say how many children they had while there.

So there is no claim in the bible that the earth is 6000 years old. Just people making the claim.

Quote:
This is actually a lot easier to answer than the previous argument for the case of God.

I'm going to base this off the Christian theology, as that's what you are debating as and that is the God that you believe in.

The bible says that both slavery, murder, and **** are all prohibited and acceptable.

-Leviticus 25:44-46

- Deuteronomy 20:10-14

- Zechariah 14:1-2
Ahh, bringing up the old testament laws. Well, to answer that, I say that we christians of today are not bound by old testament laws.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

You get the point here.

Quote:
If the bible is a representation of moral behavior, then the bible is quite simply the most evil moral rule book for moral behavior known to man.
Oof, I can tell your knowledge of the 4 gospels is either rusty or not there. Also, I can't find anything morally wrong with anything in the 10 commandments.

Quote:
Back in our early years, there was a lot more acts of ****, murder, slavery, etc, and if we all have a moral code that these things are "wrong" built within us, then why did, for the vast majority of our race, accept and willingly take part in the acts of such things as ****, murder, slavery?
Early days, yes, lots of stuff happened. But, are early christians responsible for **** and murder, or were the jews? Well, none of them committed ****, you'd be confusing the muslims history with that of the jews. But if the jews killed back in ancient times, was it because they were bloodthirsty killers out looking to dine, or was it for their own protection IE self defense. I'm not sure if you familiar with the history of the jews, but they are the most hunted race of people on the face of the earth. They're whole history is kind of a sad story except for recently, but that's because bible prophecy has to be fulfilled, which I'll get into later in the debate.

Quote:
The reason why we don't do these things as much now and have laws against is, is because of the evolution of our society. It is by secular means that we have grown. As we have advanced in technology, science, and sociability, we have step by step removed such things from our civilizations. It is by secular means over thousands of years that we have evolved our society/morals to what they are now.

If you are talking about a different set of morals, you will have to explain them, as I am unaware of any morals outside of the the normal human morals that we take part in.


I'm talking about objective moral values. Moral values written in stone. Humans have moral values yes, but are they objective? Where did humans get these values? Over time you say. But because these values suddenly sprang up, does it make them truly evil if objective moral values don't even exist?

Sure, we can say that what Hitler did was evil, because socially it's unacceptable to murder mass amounts of people. But that doesn't truly make it evil, in a universe without rules, destined to be destroyed and erasing all of human history with it, how can objective moral values even exist?
__________________

Sweet sig by Life B EZ


I feel like I get paid way to much money, but not enough -Nick Diaz
SpoKen is offline  
Old 08-23-2011, 05:27 PM   #6 (permalink)
M.C
Filthy Casuals
 
M.C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 11,040
M.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the system
Quote:
That would be true if God existed within the parameters of time. God doesn't need a creator because was never created. He doesn't have a beginning because he was there before the beginning.

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Revelation 22:13
Do you have any evidence of this? If you have none, then this point is irrelevant. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible, that's a formal logical fallacy called "circular reasoning" and it doesn't work anywhere in the world (official debate clubs, formal/informal debate, etc) as you cannot prove something with something without having outside evidence.

For example, if you say you have an invisible dragon living in your basement, you can't prove it by saying "well, I found a book on the ground that said the dragon actually does live there". You'd have to have something outside of that book to prove, with evidence, that the dragon does, in fact, live there.

In short, you cannot prove the bible with the bible, there must be outside evidence, so you saying "God lives outside space and time", provide evidence, otherwise this doesn't work at all.

Quote:
I have no doubt that particles can spawn in environment with space and time, but how would these particles spawn without space and time? Remember, everything came from the big bang, things coming after the fact is to be expected, is it not?
These particles spawn without any matter or energy. They spawn completely by themselves without the help of any sort of energy or matter. They don't use the energy of space and time to spawn, they are separate, much like the big bang.


Quote:
A couple things wrong with this. First, the bible never claimed the world was flat, but circular. Note, the hebrew language did not have a word for sphere, so circle was used.

"He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth..." (Isaiah 40:22,NIV).

He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.(Job 26:7)

The only thing I can think of that would be close to a reference to the earth being flat is Revelation 7:1:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

But, new testaments scholars have agreed that this is a reference to north, south, east, and west. So the claim that people in the bible thought the earth was flat is just false.

On top of that, there are hundreds of examples in the 4 gospels where they identify if someone is suffering from illness or from demons, Jesus curing both of course. But they didn't attribute all cases of illness to demons, that statement is also false.
I'll give you the earth is flat part, as I don't feel it's a very important part of the argument.

However, we know now, as a fact, that illness does not come from demons. It's a fact, there are no demons making people sick in this world, unless you say viruses are demons. Even if it was 1 person who the said was sick because of a demon, that is still a false claim from the bible. We know why people get sick, it has nothing to do with demons.

Quote:
That's also a false claim, many christians believe the earth is only 6000 years old because of genesis 1 and on, when the earth was created in seven days. 2 things to note about this though.

1. The length of a day in genesis is not defined. How can you have a day without the sun?

2. It doesn't say how long Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden, nor did it say how many children they had while there.

So there is no claim in the bible that the earth is 6000 years old. Just people making the claim.
It doesn't matter what a length of a day is defined as in Genesis. A day is a day, we know how long a day is. Keep in mind, the bible was written by man, not by God. Man knows how long a day is, a day is a day is a day. To claim otherwise is trying to claim something that you have no proof/evidence of and, more importantly, have no reason to believe anywhere that it was anything but normal day.

Quote:
If we go back 500 years, we come to the time of Martin Luther (born in 1483), and Columbus, who “sailed the ocean blue in 1492.”

If we go back 1000 years, we come to the time of Leif Ericson, Christian explorer, who preached Christ to pagans. (World Book, 1983, vol.6, page 270.)

If we go back 2000 years, we come to the birth of Jesus Christ. Our calendar is dated from His birth.

If we go back 3000 years, we come to the time of David and Solomon; they ruled Israel about 1000 BC.

If we go back 4000 years, we come to the time of Abraham (2000 BC), ancestor of Arabs and Jews.

If we go back 5000 years, we come to the time of Enoch, who “walked with God 300 years … and God took him [into Heaven].”

If we go back 6000 years, we come to the time of Creation, and Adam and Eve (4004 BC). Luke, evangelist and historian, records Adam as the first man (Luke 3:38).

The earth is about 6000 years old. Let God's people rejoice in Him who made them! (Psalm 149:2)
Most creationists that I've talked to believe the earth is 6,000 years old. If you personally don't think it's so, then that's a problem with your religion, not my debate, as you guys can't seem to agree on anything when it comes to details.

As it is, the bible claims it is so and so do creationists, so that's what I'm going with.

Quote:
Ahh, bringing up the old testament laws. Well, to answer that, I say that we christians of today are not bound by old testament laws.

Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John [the Baptist]: since that time the kingdom of heaven is preached.

Romans 6:14
Ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

Ephesians 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Colossians 2:14
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances ... nailing it to his cross.

You get the point here.



Oof, I can tell your knowledge of the 4 gospels is either rusty or not there. Also, I can't find anything morally wrong with anything in the 10 commandments.
Christians of today are bound by all of God's laws, no? The new testament is nothing but a scapegoat for Christians.

Quote:
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."

Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."

Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."

James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
God never changes, according to the bible. He has always been, will always be, and never changes. He's eternal. This means, whatever laws/rules he put in the old testament, still counts for today, as he never changes, his laws never change, what he says goes for all eternity.

The 10 commandments are in the old testament. You cannot say this part of the old testament is good, but this part is not, we keep this part, but this part we throw out, etc. That's picking a choosing, it doesn't work like that.

What's in the old testament stands for eternity, it never changes, and those are the laws of your God.

The reason we don't follow them now is because we have evolved by secular means and don't take kindly to killing our children anymore.

Quote:

Early days, yes, lots of stuff happened. But, are early christians responsible for **** and murder, or were the jews? Well, none of them committed ****, you'd be confusing the muslims history with that of the jews. But if the jews killed back in ancient times, was it because they were bloodthirsty killers out looking to dine, or was it for their own protection IE self defense. I'm not sure if you familiar with the history of the jews, but they are the most hunted race of people on the face of the earth. They're whole history is kind of a sad story except for recently, but that's because bible prophecy has to be fulfilled, which I'll get into later in the debate.
Neither the Jews or Christians were responsible for ****. **** has been around since we were cavemen living in caves, so has murder.

**** and Murder has been around far, FAR before Christian religion was even thought of. It was around when Zeus and his 3 brothers were the big dogs in town, which was looong before Christianity. It was around before Zeus, even.

**** and Murder and theft has always been. Why is it not so now? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bible, as already stated, the bible loves **** and murder and slavery. God says it's perfectly okay, not only is it okay, but he tells you what type of slaves you can own and what type of women you can ****, as already stated.

The reason we don't do these things as norm anymore, is because we have grown as a secular society. We have grown by secular means. We have advanced in technology and the ability to be more social and understanding over the course of thousands of years. The bible has nothing to do with it.

Quote:
I'm talking about objective moral values. Moral values written in stone. Humans have moral values yes, but are they objective? Where did humans get these values? Over time you say. But because these values suddenly sprang up, does it make them truly evil if objective moral values don't even exist?

Sure, we can say that what Hitler did was evil, because socially it's unacceptable to murder mass amounts of people. But that doesn't truly make it evil, in a universe without rules, destined to be destroyed and erasing all of human history with it, how can objective moral values even exist?
I'll start with Hitler.

Hitler killed millions of people. You know who else killed millions of people? Your God. If the Christian God is an accurate representation of how we should behave/our proper moral values, then Hitler is probably one of the most morally good people that ever lived.

With that said, the only moral values on this planet is the ones we have been taught and have been created as we have evolved. We've learned to not ****, to not kill (unless it's in war, of course). We have laws in place because we, as humans, don't want to live in the world the Christian bible says to live in. We don't want to kill our kids when they talk back to us, we don't want to go to a town and kill all the men and **** all the women, we're not big on that these days, so we put in laws against these things.

Objective morals? I have no idea what you mean. There's no such thing as "good or evil" except what we, as humans, make of the words. These two words were invented by people, not God. What is good or evil is what we think is good and evil, nothing more nothing less.
__________________


“Anna, my strong, terrifying Anna.” -Cas
"You lack the requisite spine and testicular fortitude to study under me" -Elodin
M.C is offline  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:36 AM   #7 (permalink)
of Nazareth
 
Soojooko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Moon
Posts: 8,263
Soojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF MaterialSoojooko Is Future HOF Material
Doesnt science tell us that the universe is so unfathomably big, that there is likelyhood of just about anything existing out there. They talk about alternate realities, with multiple versions of each of us doing everything possible.

With this in mind, I dont see how anybody can discount the existence of a being out there, that is so monumentally ahead of humans in terms of evolution and technology, that they would indeed seem like gods.

And I know there is the argument that "they" or "it" would have shown itself by now, but consider this: If you have a glass tank in your bedroom, filled with soil housing an ant colony, no matter what you do, they can not see you. They are oblivious. Even if you stick your hand in and smash the place up, it is still well beyond the realms of their understanding to process the reality of what's going on. Maybe these beings are controlling our lives and planet in the same way? I dont see why not? It cant be disproved, no matter.

So, Science, rather then debunk gods existence, may actually make a case for it. If the universe is so infinitely large, then we must be like amoeba to some of the beings or life out there. Beings that may well be capable of creating planets and life, right?

But personally, I dont believe in the big bang. Nor do I believe in god. The only think I believe with all my heart is that human existence and all we perceive is exclusive to us. Hence our god complex. We create it simply by being. If we all disappear, the the version of the universe that humans can see, hear, taste etc, also disappears. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thats my personal feelings.
Soojooko is offline  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:40 PM   #8 (permalink)
Number 1 Nerf-Herder
 
Dr Gonzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,133
Dr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A BallerDr Gonzo Is A Baller
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Doesnt science tell us that the universe is so unfathomably big, that there is likelyhood of just about anything existing out there. They talk about alternate realities, with multiple versions of each of us doing everything possible.

With this in mind, I dont see how anybody can discount the existence of a being out there, that is so monumentally ahead of humans in terms of evolution and technology, that they would indeed seem like gods.

And I know there is the argument that "they" or "it" would have shown itself by now, but consider this: If you have a glass tank in your bedroom, filled with soil housing an ant colony, no matter what you do, they can not see you. They are oblivious. Even if you stick your hand in and smash the place up, it is still well beyond the realms of their understanding to process the reality of what's going on. Maybe these beings are controlling our lives and planet in the same way? I dont see why not? It cant be disproved, no matter.

So, Science, rather then debunk gods existence, may actually make a case for it. If the universe is so infinitely large, then we must be like amoeba to some of the beings or life out there. Beings that may well be capable of creating planets and life, right?

But personally, I dont believe in the big bang. Nor do I believe in god. The only think I believe with all my heart is that human existence and all we perceive is exclusive to us. Hence our god complex. We create it simply by being. If we all disappear, the the version of the universe that humans can see, hear, taste etc, also disappears. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Thats my personal feelings.
Interesting point. One I haven't considered. My view is the last thing the men behind the curtain want is a conscious informed public capable of critical thinking. Which is why a continually fraudulent zeitgeist is output via religion, the mass media, and the educational system. They seek to keep you in a distracted, naive bubble. And they are doing a damn good job of it. Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It serves to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority.

George Carlin put it well.

Quote:
Think about it! Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! - But He *loves* you."
Our true divinity is in our ability to create. And armed with the understanding of the symbiotic connections of life, while being guided by the emergent nature of reality, there is nothing we cannot do or accomplish.
__________________




I used to be Tyson Fury but now I'm not.
Dr Gonzo is offline  
Old 08-24-2011, 02:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
Super Heavyweight
 
SpoKen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Portland, Or
Posts: 4,601
SpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF MaterialSpoKen Is Future HOF Material
Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
Do you have any evidence of this? If you have none, then this point is irrelevant. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible, that's a formal logical fallacy called "circular reasoning" and it doesn't work anywhere in the world (official debate clubs, formal/informal debate, etc) as you cannot prove something with something without having outside evidence.

For example, if you say you have an invisible dragon living in your basement, you can't prove it by saying "well, I found a book on the ground that said the dragon actually does live there". You'd have to have something outside of that book to prove, with evidence, that the dragon does, in fact, live there.

In short, you cannot prove the bible with the bible, there must be outside evidence, so you saying "God lives outside space and time", provide evidence, otherwise this doesn't work at all.
[/quote]

Whoa whoa whoa, can't use the bible to prove the bible? The bible is a compilation of books written from different people at different points of history. Some of the books were written hundreds of years after another book for instance.

Second, the bible is the only source in the world where you can learn about the christian god. Using any outside sources would be silly since you would have to fact check that outside source with the bible. I can give an example of why that's silly reasoning.

Say I wanted to know everything there is to know about you, but instead of going up and talking to you, I instead talk to Toxic and ask him to tell me about you. How am I supposed to prove God's existence without using the bible? I'd have to resign from the debate because that'd be impossible.

Also, proof for God existing outside of time? Sure.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)

[/quote]These particles spawn without any matter or energy. They spawn completely by themselves without the help of any sort of energy or matter. They don't use the energy of space and time to spawn, they are separate, much like the big bang.[/quote]

Maybe your not getting my point. In order to accurately reproduce the big bang you'd need all the requirements, not just some. You'd need a spaceless environment, a timeless environment, an environment with no mass or matter, or anything. That's impossible to recreate because we can't make a timeless spaceless environment. So I don't count that as evidence.

Quote:
I'll give you the earth is flat part, as I don't feel it's a very important part of the argument.

However, we know now, as a fact, that illness does not come from demons. It's a fact, there are no demons making people sick in this world, unless you say viruses are demons. Even if it was 1 person who the said was sick because of a demon, that is still a false claim from the bible. We know why people get sick, it has nothing to do with demons.
Well, I believe that comes down to personal experience. Have you ever witnessed a real life exorcism? I've seen a couple, it mostly happens in kids. I heard a kid growl in a voice that clearly was not his. But, if you don't believe in God, certainly you don't believe in satan. A quote I heard somewhere, "The greatest lie satan ever told was getting people to believe he didn't exist."

Quote:
It doesn't matter what a length of a day is defined as in Genesis. A day is a day, we know how long a day is. Keep in mind, the bible was written by man, not by God. Man knows how long a day is, a day is a day is a day. To claim otherwise is trying to claim something that you have no proof/evidence of and, more importantly, have no reason to believe anywhere that it was anything but normal day.
Let's assume the bible means what it says, and that in 7 (Well, 6) 24 hour days he created the heavens and the earth. That still doesn't answer the question of how long was Adam and Eve in the garden, which isn't written anywhere. So I don't see how that's evidence in your case.

Quote:
Most creationists that I've talked to believe the earth is 6,000 years old. If you personally don't think it's so, then that's a problem with your religion, not my debate, as you guys can't seem to agree on anything when it comes to details.

As it is, the bible claims it is so and so do creationists, so that's what I'm going with.
The bible makes no claims to how old the actual earth is. If it does, please find me that verse that gives it an age. Second, how can you blame human error on the product. I hope I worded that right but I'll give an example.

A guy bought a chair that needed to be put together. He didn't read the instructions because he knows what a chair looks like. He ends up building it wrong, so he blames the chair instead of blaming himself for not looking at the instructions. In other words, don't blame the bible because people mis-interpret it.

Quote:
Christians of today are bound by all of God's laws, no? The new testament is nothing but a scapegoat for Christians.

God never changes, according to the bible. He has always been, will always be, and never changes. He's eternal. This means, whatever laws/rules he put in the old testament, still counts for today, as he never changes, his laws never change, what he says goes for all eternity.
Absolutely not. It would seem you don't know the difference between Jew and Gentile. And as I stated before, with Jesus Christ, the bridge between Jew and Gentile was shattered.

NIV Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So I'll state it again, the Law was not given to the Gentile, they were given to the jews.

Quote:
The 10 commandments are in the old testament. You cannot say this part of the old testament is good, but this part is not, we keep this part, but this part we throw out, etc. That's picking a choosing, it doesn't work like that.
I have a question, outside of the 10 commandments, which commands are given to the christian? There are plenty, but I want to see your answer first.

Quote:
What's in the old testament stands for eternity, it never changes, and those are the laws of your God.

The reason we don't follow them now is because we have evolved by secular means and don't take kindly to killing our children anymore.
Uhm, abortion?

Quote:
Neither the Jews or Christians were responsible for ****. **** has been around since we were cavemen living in caves, so has murder..

**** and Murder has been around far, FAR before Christian religion was even thought of. It was around when Zeus and his 3 brothers were the big dogs in town, which was looong before Christianity. It was around before Zeus, even.

**** and Murder and theft has always been. Why is it not so now? It has nothing whatsoever to do with the bible, as already stated, the bible loves **** and murder and slavery. God says it's perfectly okay, not only is it okay, but he tells you what type of slaves you can own and what type of women you can ****, as already stated.
Where in the bible do you see murder, **** and slavery being committed by God's chosen? You can make a case for murder, but I'd make the case for self defense. But I have no idea where in the bible **** is shown positively and and slavery is shown positively. I can only think of examples where god frees slaves. Like, the Jews in egypt for example.

Quote:
The reason we don't do these things as norm anymore, is because we have grown as a secular society. We have grown by secular means. We have advanced in technology and the ability to be more social and understanding over the course of thousands of years. The bible has nothing to do with it.
I find a lot of parallels between the laws in America and 10 commandments. To say the bible has nothing to do with it is just silly.

[quote]I'll start with Hitler.

Hitler killed millions of people. You know who else killed millions of people? Your God. If the Christian God is an accurate representation of how we should behave/our proper moral values, then Hitler is probably one of the most morally good people that ever lived.[/QUOTE

Wrong, We are not supposed to live like God, nor be like him. We are to praise him. We are to be like Jesus, his Son. Who lived the perfect life and died for the sins of his people. Where in the bible does it say to imitate God?

Quote:
With that said, the only moral values on this planet is the ones we have been taught and have been created as we have evolved. We've learned to not ****, to not kill (unless it's in war, of course). We have laws in place because we, as humans, don't want to live in the world the Christian bible says to live in. We don't want to kill our kids when they talk back to us, we don't want to go to a town and kill all the men and **** all the women, we're not big on that these days, so we put in laws against these things.

Objective morals? I have no idea what you mean. There's no such thing as "good or evil" except what we, as humans, make of the words. These two words were invented by people, not God. What is good or evil is what we think is good and evil, nothing more nothing less.
So, since there is ultimately no good or evil, how is **** and murder bad? Because we say it is doesn't make it actually bad is the point I'm trying to make. Subjective morals are meaningless in a world without rules, it's more of a guideline.
__________________

Sweet sig by Life B EZ


I feel like I get paid way to much money, but not enough -Nick Diaz
SpoKen is offline  
Old 08-24-2011, 04:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
M.C
Filthy Casuals
 
M.C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: California
Posts: 11,040
M.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the systemM.C has cheated the system
Quote:
Whoa whoa whoa, can't use the bible to prove the bible? The bible is a compilation of books written from different people at different points of history. Some of the books were written hundreds of years after another book for instance.

Second, the bible is the only source in the world where you can learn about the christian god. Using any outside sources would be silly since you would have to fact check that outside source with the bible. I can give an example of why that's silly reasoning.

Say I wanted to know everything there is to know about you, but instead of going up and talking to you, I instead talk to Toxic and ask him to tell me about you. How am I supposed to prove God's existence without using the bible? I'd have to resign from the debate because that'd be impossible.

Also, proof for God existing outside of time? Sure.

No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. (1 Corinthians 2:7)

This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time (2 Timothy 1:9)

The hope of eternal life, which God... promised before the beginning of time (Titus 1:2)

To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. (Jude 1:25)
You cannot, again I say, cannot use the bible to prove the bible, the same way you cannot use a book that says a dragon lives in your basement to prove a dragon lives in your basement, you must have outside evidence.

You need evidence, provable, testable evidence to prove something. You cannot say because you read it in a 2,000 year old book, it's true. You have to have outside evidence, that's the way evidence works, that's the way it always works.

If you come to me and ask me if I have a pet dragon, I say yes, do you believe me? If you do, you are extremely gullible. What I'd assume you'd do is say "prove it", not by my word, but by actual evidence, as I cannot prove I have a dragon just by saying I have a dragon.

The bible is the same, you cannot say God exists out of space and time because a book says he does, you need evidence that he does, and the bible is far not evidence. The bible is as much evidence as me saying I own a dragon is evidence that I own a dragon, it's silly and it's called Circular Reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

You need to either provide facts and then evidence to back up those facts, or just throw this one out of your debate, because what you're saying is your evidence is a bronze aged book written by men who knew little to nothing about how things work in reality.

Quote:
Well, I believe that comes down to personal experience. Have you ever witnessed a real life exorcism? I've seen a couple, it mostly happens in kids. I heard a kid growl in a voice that clearly was not his. But, if you don't believe in God, certainly you don't believe in satan. A quote I heard somewhere, "The greatest lie satan ever told was getting people to believe he didn't exist."
You can believe that if you want, but you're wrong and incorrect. It has nothing to do with personal experience, the human mind is extremely susceptible to hallucination. We have 0, count it, 0 evidence or proof that anything "supernatural" exists. Absolutely nothing.

In any case, it certainly doesn't cause us to be sick. Again, the bible says disease and illness is caused by demonic possession. We know where illness and disease comes from, and it's not demonic possession, we know this as fact.

Quote:
Let's assume the bible means what it says, and that in 7 (Well, 6) 24 hour days he created the heavens and the earth. That still doesn't answer the question of how long was Adam and Eve in the garden, which isn't written anywhere. So I don't see how that's evidence in your case
.

First of all, Earth wasn't created in 7 (6) days. We know as fact, using an overwhelming amount of evidence and proof to back up the claim, that Earth is 4.5 billion years old, so God either doesn't know how to count, or the people who wrote the bible didn't know anything about how to actually test how old the Earth is (they didn't).

Second, you are correct that no one knows how long Adam and Eve were "in the garden", however, most creationists and Christians I have talked to, and have heard argue their point against science, is that the earth is 6,000 years old by adding together all the different areas where things appear, and track it back to Adam and Eve, which was apparently 6,000 years ago.

If you don't want me to take the word of Christians and creationists, then there's nothing I can do, as I certainly can't go by the bible, seeing as it is full of false or incomplete claims, and can't prove itself.

Quote:
The bible makes no claims to how old the actual earth is. If it does, please find me that verse that gives it an age. Second, how can you blame human error on the product. I hope I worded that right but I'll give an example.

A guy bought a chair that needed to be put together. He didn't read the instructions because he knows what a chair looks like. He ends up building it wrong, so he blames the chair instead of blaming himself for not looking at the instructions. In other words, don't blame the bible because people mis-interpret it.
Same as above.

Quote:
Absolutely not. It would seem you don't know the difference between Jew and Gentile. And as I stated before, with Jesus Christ, the bridge between Jew and Gentile was shattered.

NIV Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

So I'll state it again, the Law was not given to the Gentile, they were given to the jews.
So, when your God says "I never change", he's lying then? He actually does change even though he doesn't? He changes from book to book, never staying the same?

That pretty much goes against everything the bible claims God is, no?

Quote:
I have a question, outside of the 10 commandments, which commands are given to the christian? There are plenty, but I want to see your answer first.
It doesn't matter, my statement is the same. You cannot pick and choose which points of the old testament to leave out and which to keep in. God is eternal (well, you seem to not think so based on the above point I made, but most say he is) and thus what's in the old testament counts for today as well.

You can't take the old testament laws out because they are nice and skip all the slavery, murder and death that God creates and says is okay.

Quote:
Uhm, abortion?
Abortion, legally, is not killing children. Do you see anyone stabbing a child in the face for talking back to them, then everyone saying "well, he talked back, it's okay?".

That's the point I'm making, we don't stone our children to death anymore, 'cause unlike the bible, we've grown up.

Quote:
Where in the bible do you see murder, **** and slavery being committed by God's chosen? You can make a case for murder, but I'd make the case for self defense. But I have no idea where in the bible **** is shown positively and and slavery is shown positively. I can only think of examples where god frees slaves. Like, the Jews in egypt for example
.

Quote:
However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way -Leviticus 25:44-46

Quote:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Quote:
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment
- Zechariah 14:1-2

Quote:
He that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death.- Exodus 21:15

Quote:
He that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death. - Exodus 21:17

Quote:
The LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon.... And there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead - Exodus 12:29-30
I can get a lot more if you wish, but I just copy/pasted my previous post on it.

God claims it's perfectly okay to **** and have slavery, he tells you what type of women you can enslave, and tells you who you can kill.

God is evil by today's standards.

Quote:
I find a lot of parallels between the laws in America and 10 commandments. To say the bible has nothing to do with it is just silly.
Really? Because there's no mentioning that you can't enslave people in the 10 commandments.

Also, the first 5 of the 10 commandments aren't laws in America.

Quote:
So, since there is ultimately no good or evil, how is **** and murder bad? Because we say it is doesn't make it actually bad is the point I'm trying to make. Subjective morals are meaningless in a world without rules, it's more of a guideline.
**** and murder is bad because WE claim it is bad. There doesn't have to be a magical guy in the sky to prevent us from doing these things.

We believe **** and murder is bad because it imposes on people's lives/rights. Rights WE created over thousands of years of evolution and social evolution, that we have put laws in place in order to protect them. WE, humans, people, man and woman, we created these rights and laws, we know we did because we have history of them being created.

At one point, **** and murder was perfectly acceptable, we did it all the time. Back in the bronze age and back before that, **** and murder was a casual thing. You could take any woman you wanted, Kings used to do it all the time.

Also, slaves have been a thing for the vast majority of our race and only recently (in comparison to how long our race has been here) have we stopped it, by secular means.

It's very easy to understand why we don't **** and murder, because we've grown up from bible times.
__________________


“Anna, my strong, terrifying Anna.” -Cas
"You lack the requisite spine and testicular fortitude to study under me" -Elodin
M.C is offline  
Closed Thread



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

VerticalSports
Baseball Forum Golf Forum Boxing Forum Snowmobile Forum
Basketball Forum Soccer Forum MMA Forum PWC Forum
Football Forum Cricket Forum Wrestling Forum ATV Forum
Hockey Forum Volleyball Forum Paintball Forum Snowboarding Forum
Tennis Forum Rugby Forums Lacrosse Forum Skiing Forums
Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
Powered by vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2009 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios