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Old 03-11-2013, 06:41 AM   #91 (permalink)
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what liddell said hexrei
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:45 AM   #92 (permalink)
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I think I'm a bit out of my depth with this subject now, having little to no knowledge on it. Ive said what I think but debating it further would only lead to me spouting misinformed opinions.

Liddellianenko, as I said in the rep I just sent you, I appreciate the shit out of the way you have presented your opinions on this and whilst they differ from mine Im glad at least that some people on here can express themselves without the need to be insulting or abusive.

On that note, other than watching you guys, Im bowing out form this thread.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:55 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Killz View Post
I think I'm a bit out of my depth with this subject now, having little to no knowledge on it. Ive said what I think but debating it further would only lead to me spouting misinformed opinions.

Liddellianenko, as I said in the rep I just sent you, I appreciate the shit out of the way you have presented your opinions on this and whilst they differ from mine Im glad at least that some people on here can express themselves without the need to be insulting or abusive.

On that note, other than watching you guys, Im bowing out form this thread.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:58 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post

You think so? I think Fallon would walk right through Rhonda or any woman. It wouldn't even be competitive, as all the fights so far have shown.
Ummm... ok? Gina also ripped through her competition in her day. So? You're basing your entire argument on a career that has never faced elite competition.


Look, I don't care that much if she is able to fight. But your idea that she is still a man is ridiculous. she doesn't have balls where is almost all testosterone is produced in the body. I've seen much manlier women than her in high school athletics. Are we going to outlaw that thick girl that everyone suggests is sexually ambiguous too?
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:03 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
Ummm... ok? Gina also ripped through her competition in her day. So? You're basing your entire argument on a career that has never faced elite competition.


Look, I don't care that much if she is able to fight. But your idea that she is still a man is ridiculous. she doesn't have balls where is almost all testosterone is produced in the body. I've seen much manlier women than her in high school athletics. Are we going to outlaw that thick girl that everyone suggests is sexually ambiguous too?
that is some ridiculous argument you have there, yes every girl that is big but doesn't have a dick should be outlawed smh you know the answer to your own questions hex
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:06 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
Ummm... ok? Gina also ripped through her competition in her day. So? You're basing your entire argument on a career that has never faced elite competition.


Look, I don't care that much if she is able to fight. But your idea that she is still a man is ridiculous. she doesn't have balls where is almost all testosterone is produced in the body. I've seen much manlier women than her in high school athletics. Are we going to outlaw that thick girl that everyone suggests is sexually ambiguous too?
And I think your statement that a man is nothing more than "balls and testosterone", or the equivalent assumption that a woman nothing more than a "vagina, boobs and hormones" is ridiculous, if not downright offensive.

Scientifically, the differences in bone density, structure, blood capacity, organs, muscle system etc. don't just go away because you "have no balls", let alone all the psychological, reproductive and physiological differences. Even on a casual glance, you can notice that Fallon still has the facial bone structure of a man, and even if that was surgically altered, the rest of the body still has a man's bone structure, you can't replace them all.

What thick girl are we talking about? If you mean it's a lesbian who is otherwise completely physically born a woman then it's a different story. That would be a debate on sexuality more than gender itself, and the only concern would be if the other female competitors are fine with it or sexual arousal etc. during the competition. Physicality would be no different and not an issue.

If it's another suspected transgender person then yes, I think her opponents should have the right to get a test invoked to see if that is the case, the same way a male competitor has every right to expect an opponent free from steroids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killz View Post
I think I'm a bit out of my depth with this subject now, having little to no knowledge on it. Ive said what I think but debating it further would only lead to me spouting misinformed opinions.

Liddellianenko, as I said in the rep I just sent you, I appreciate the shit out of the way you have presented your opinions on this and whilst they differ from mine Im glad at least that some people on here can express themselves without the need to be insulting or abusive.

On that note, other than watching you guys, Im bowing out form this thread.
I'd rep you back but I need to spread some more love first . No worries, we're all friends and fans here, no need for this to get personal or insulting to anyone, just debating is all.
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Old 03-11-2013, 07:46 AM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
And I think your statement that a man is nothing more than "balls and testosterone", or the equivalent assumption that a woman nothing more than a "vagina, boobs and hormones" is ridiculous, if not downright offensive.

Scientifically, the differences in bone density, structure, blood capacity, organs, muscle system etc. don't just go away because you "have no balls", let alone all the psychological, reproductive and physiological differences. Even on a casual glance, you can notice that Fallon still has the facial bone structure of a man, and even if that was surgically altered, the rest of the body still has a man's bone structure, you can't replace them all.

What thick girl are we talking about? If you mean it's a lesbian who is otherwise completely physically born a woman then it's a different story. That would be a debate on sexuality more than gender itself, and the only concern would be if the other female competitors are fine with it or sexual arousal etc. during the competition. Physicality would be no different and not an issue.

If it's another suspected transgender person then yes, I think her opponents should have the right to get a test invoked to see if that is the case, the same way a male competitor has every right to expect an opponent free from steroids.
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Old 03-11-2013, 11:33 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Sorry i wasn't aware either, so I hope I didn't offend you with the somewhat harsh directness of my post. You're a polite and likeable poster, so it's nothing personal.

Still, disclosure or not, do you think it'd be fair for you to compete in WMMA against say LizaG, or for her to be forced to compete with you if she wanted to compete in the women's div? Honestly, how much do you bench on a good day?

IMO the human gender system is a lot more complex than a handful of hormones, the fact that surgery can't replicate reproductive ability is only one small hint of that. It's not as simple as an Androgen inhibitor makes everything even. The fact that Fallon blatantly overpowers her / his opponents and walks through their punches to KO them in less than a round makes me seriously doubt your claim that the inhibitors are skewing things "in favor of" her unconcious opponents.

I think an all transgender org would be more fair, it'd just be a question of a market or viewers for it.
On a good day I can bench 95 pounds, before I transitioned, I could easily bench 150 on a good day. Do I think it would be fair for me to fight LizaG? Interesting question, we all know I train Muay Thai and I also train BJJ and I still think it would be fair. I also think I'd actually lose that fight. I've said it before and I'll say it again, you guys appear to be confusing gender with sex. Sex is the reproductive organs your body has, gender is how you see yourself.

One thing that people seem to be overlooking too is that the desire to transition spawns from a condition that affects the brain similiarily to how depression affects the brain. As far as the equal rights thing goes, I think that society is doing itself a great disservice by not accepting Fallon simply because she's trans. I guess the way I see it, beyond my firsthand experience would be that the commission granted her a license, and she has been licensed to fight as Fallon. The commission knows what it's doing, they are the 'experts' after all, right? So if you won't take the word of another trans woman, at least take the commission's decision at face value. The likelihood of a trans exclusive fighting organization is slim to none, but not because there's no audience for it, because there'd be so few fighters willing to keep their past in the present. Most people who transition attempt to leave their old life behind them and try to live successfully as their new sex and not be seen as trans.

We've seen the question asked, if Fallon had a losing record, would this debate be happening, now I'd like to turn it around more, hopefully without getting sidetracked. Would we be having this debate if Fallon was a trans man instead?

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:38 PM   #99 (permalink)
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that is some ridiculous argument you have there, yes every girl that is big but doesn't have a dick should be outlawed smh you know the answer to your own questions hex
No it comes down to the apex of the argument which is that she has an advantage because of once having a penis. That's what I'm addressing here. Fallon doesn't seem to be some kind of phenom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
And I think your statement that a man is nothing more than "balls and testosterone", or the equivalent assumption that a woman nothing more than a "vagina, boobs and hormones" is ridiculous, if not downright offensive.

Scientifically, the differences in bone density, structure, blood capacity, organs, muscle system etc. don't just go away because you "have no balls", let alone all the psychological, reproductive and physiological differences. Even on a casual glance, you can notice that Fallon still has the facial bone structure of a man, and even if that was surgically altered, the rest of the body still has a man's bone structure, you can't replace them all.

What thick girl are we talking about? If you mean it's a lesbian who is otherwise completely physically born a woman then it's a different story. That would be a debate on sexuality more than gender itself, and the only concern would be if the other female competitors are fine with it or sexual arousal etc. during the competition. Physicality would be no different and not an issue.

If it's another suspected transgender person then yes, I think her opponents should have the right to get a test invoked to see if that is the case, the same way a male competitor has every right to expect an opponent free from steroids.
Actually, the major differences do tend to go away. I believe Fallon has not had testes for what... 7 years now? more? She's been undergoing massive hormone therapy for that time. Bone density is a function of testosterone, for example, and low test in men is associated with osteoperosis as a result. I'm not sure why you bring up her "reproductive differences", who cares about that?

If you want to ban her from fighting because of her face bones... lol. Have fun with that. What test are you talking about btw? Chromosomal?
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:29 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
If it's another suspected transgender person then yes, I think her opponents should have the right to get a test invoked to see if that is the case, the same way a male competitor has every right to expect an opponent free from steroids.
This is definitely a slippery slope, it's not at all the same as a male competitor expecting a steroid free opponent. Essentially, people transition to cope with gender dysphoria. The use of the word transgender is incorrect in this context, you mean to say transsexual, and again, I'll loop back to my point from earlier. 'Suspected' or not, the commission deemed her eligible to fight as a female, that's all her opponents need to know about her perceived gender. How they prepare for fights should be based on old footage from Fallon's fights, not what genitals used to be between her legs.

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