Transgender fighter Fallon Fox's MMA license under review - Page 11 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
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post #101 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 05:39 PM
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Would we be having this debate if Fallon was a trans man instead?
Of course not.

By the way, this thread delivers.


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post #102 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 05:56 PM
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Of course not.
Can everyone admit then that there is a hint of hypocrisy here? I don't see the difference, how can it be okay for trans men to fight biological men, but not okay for trans women to fight biological women?

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post #103 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 05:59 PM
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Wow. This blew up since the last time I posted. I actually figured it was dying down.

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Would we be having this debate if Fallon was a trans man instead?
Nope. This issue has always only gained traction in women's sports.

Also, if some people consider Fallon forever a man and can only fairly compete against men, then they would also have to conclude a FtM trans man is forever a woman and can only fairly compete against women. But I doubt they'd say that.

Quote:
You think so? I think Fallon would walk right through Rhonda or any woman. It wouldn't even be competitive, as all the fights so far have shown.
I wouldn't jump to that conclusion. Fox hasn't even beaten anyone with a win as a pro. One of her competitors was knocked out faster in her only other pro fight than against Fox.

A perspective from a woman active in the grappling circuit who if I recall correctly is a doctor:

Quote:
I competed against her in 2010 and nothing, behavior, strength, etc. would have clued me into her being anything other than biologically female. Not to mention the doctors showing her levels are good. Gender and sexual identity are so much more complicated than the scientifically illiterate like to accept, and if she's happy this way while phenotypically female (including hormone levels), well I wish her the best.

...

Look, I've done 100+ grappling matches against women and another 20+ against men. I competed against her, you and all the other speculators in the thread have never seen anything other than her pictures. She had the physical attributes of a female, albeit an athletic one. She wouldn't, however, have fallen into top 5 strengthwise/explosiveness/quickness of women I've competed against. Just chill out and let her live her life.
She also said she was the winner of her match with Fox.

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post #104 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:10 PM
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There shouldn't really be a debate here. A man turned women should not fight women.

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post #105 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:17 PM
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It all comes down to tests.

If they can prove beyond a reasonable doubt, scientifically, that she is in fact exactly the same as any other woman out there, and then provide those tests results, then there isn't an issue.

However, if there is a grey area, ANY grey area, if they cannot prove on every single level with scentific data and tests that she is 100%, not 99%, 100% exactly, pure "woman" in terms of genetic/biological data, then there is a big issue and he should not be sanctioned to fight.
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post #106 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmackyBear View Post
A perspective from a woman active in the grappling circuit who if I recall correctly is a doctor:



She also said she was the winner of her match with Fox.
lol i thought i saw you over on the UG contradicting me. This was Hilary IIRC.

edit... or maybe not. could have been one of crooklyn's interviewees maybe?

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post #107 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:24 PM
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There shouldn't really be a debate here. A man turned women should not fight women.
I like MMA fighting, I'm a trans woman, does this mean I shouldn't do what makes me happy based on your preconceived flawed notions of what a woman is? A trans woman, is a woman. If Chaz Bono wanted to fight, should he have to fight women?

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post #108 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:26 PM
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If we're speaking in hypotheticals, then yes, I would debate a woman turned man fighting male fighters. In both circumstances, you essentially have a man attempting to wail on a woman. Male on female violence is not a social norm, and regardless of sex change operations, pills, and the like, a woman who becomes a 'man' is still a woman - the same way that a man who becomes a 'woman' is still a man. Again, I understand that we want equality, but at its core, this is gender on gender battering, and sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils.
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post #109 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Psycho View Post
If we're speaking in hypotheticals, then yes, I would debate a woman turned man fighting male fighters. In both circumstances, you essentially have a man attempting to wail on a woman. Male on female violence is not a social norm, and regardless of sex change operations, pills, and the like, a woman who becomes a 'man' is still a woman - the same way that a man who becomes a 'woman' is still a man. Again, I understand that we want equality, but at its core, this is gender on gender battering, and sometimes we have to choose the lesser of two evils.
How is a man who becomes a woman still a man, or a woman becoming a man, how are they still a woman? Also, why do you put the transitioned sex in quotes? Seems a little strange.

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post #110 of 172 (permalink) Old 03-11-2013, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowgirl View Post
How is a man who becomes a woman still a man, or a woman becoming a man, how are they still a woman? Also, why do you put the transitioned sex in quotes? Seems a little strange.
The definition of the word "woman" is human female, a human of the female gender. Woman is a term used to point out what the human version of say a "bitch" is in dog terms, which is a female dog, or a "doe" is a female deer - a "woman" is a female human.

The definition of "female" clearly states that is a gender that can give birth, of or denoting the sex that produces ova or bears young. Designating an organ, such as a pistil or ovary, that functions in producing seeds after fertilization. These are the definitions of "female", which in turn is what a "woman" is.

The definitions are extremely clear, you can muddle it up however you want or give yourself your own definition, but males who go through operations to try to become female are not female, neither are they women by the actual definition of the word, as they are not female.
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