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Old 03-11-2013, 03:42 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cowgirl View Post
It's not exactly the forum's biggest secret lol. No worries though

Anyways, now that my dirty laundry has been aired, so to speak, back on topic. Fallon should have disclosed her medical history to her opponents simply because the majority of people still feel there is an unfair advantage. At least with full disclosure, these other women have no excuses. However, full disclosure is also not likely simply because I think she knew the reaction would be something like this.
Sorry i wasn't aware either, so I hope I didn't offend you with the somewhat harsh directness of my post. You're a polite and likeable poster, so it's nothing personal.

Still, disclosure or not, do you think it'd be fair for you to compete in WMMA against say LizaG, or for her to be forced to compete with you if she wanted to compete in the women's div? Honestly, how much do you bench on a good day?

IMO the human gender system is a lot more complex than a handful of hormones, the fact that surgery can't replicate reproductive ability is only one small hint of that. It's not as simple as an Androgen inhibitor makes everything even. The fact that Fallon blatantly overpowers her / his opponents and walks through their punches to KO them in less than a round makes me seriously doubt your claim that the inhibitors are skewing things "in favor of" her unconcious opponents.

I think an all transgender org would be more fair, it'd just be a question of a market or viewers for it.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:49 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Ask the Fight Doc: What are your thoughts on transgender MMA fighters?

MMAjunkie.com medical columnist and consultant Dr. Johnny Benjamin has no problem waxing poetic on a variety of MMA-related topics. But when it comes to transgender fighters in the sport, his opinions are rather limited.

Dr. Benjamin said there's a good reason for that.

* * * *


Doc, what are your thoughts on the transgender MMA fighter, Fallon Fox? – Anonymous

This is an extremely emotionally charged issue as I've learned the hard way. For me it is not a matter of social commentary. LGBT people should be able to live their lives without harassment. For me, I see it as a topic of safety.

Contact and combat sports in particular are very different from finesse non-contact sports. In combat sports, one very important facet of the encounter is to inflict sufficient force upon your opponent to provoke him or her to submit voluntarily or involuntarily. Physical pain and the potential for injury of varying degrees are omnipresent and inherent to these sports. With this in mind, player safety must be of primary importance; assume nothing and err on the side of caution and player safety.

Why is the distinction between contact/combat sports and non-contact/finesse sports so important from a player safety perspective? The potential for serious physical injury, including permanent traumatic brain injury, is far greater in contact/combat sports. Contact/combat sports have far more safety rules in place to help mitigate their inherent dangers. Player safety is the reason why there are weight classes mandated in boxing and MMA – but none in track and field.

Without question hormonal therapy and gender-reassignment surgery can make a person look more feminine, but does it change the physical performance capacity to that of a non-transgender woman? Does hormonal therapy and gender-reassignment surgery make the transgender female perform athletically like a non-trans female – or is there a performance advantage that may create a level of unacceptable danger to an opponent?

It's a simple, honest, unbiased, scientific health and safety question.

What does the scientific/medical research suggest? Unfortunately, pitifully little, if anything. This very specific and important question has not been adequately and scientifically investigated. Many medical professionals have voiced well-phrased opinions regarding muscle mass and bone density, but none has cited specific, scientifically supported information that answers the athletic/physical performance capacity question. Hunches, gut feelings and anecdotal experience don't pass muster in the medical arena when a person's heath, well-being and life are truly at stake.

Until we better understand the physical/athletic performance capacity of transgender athletes, it is imprudent to allow participation in contact/combat sports. Merely hoping that it is a safe practice in an already inherently dangerous arena of contact/combat sports is unacceptable.

Once we know the facts, only then can we proceed safely.

Primum non nocere – first do no harm.

Dr. Johnny Benjamin is MMAjunkie.com's medical columnist and consultant and a noted combat-sports specialist. He is also a member of the Association of Boxing Commissions' MMA Medical Subcommittee. Dr. Benjamin writes an "Ask the Doc" column approximately every two weeks for MMAjunkie.com. To submit a question for a future column, email him at askthedoc [AT] mmajunkie.com, or share your questions and thoughts in the comments section below. You can find Dr. Benjamin online at www.drjohnnybenjamin.com, and you can read his other sports-related articles at blog.drjohnnybenjamin.com.
Here's an interesting take.

I'm in the grey with this topic. I respect and fully support Fallon for her life choices, as she cannot control this. But it's tricky too because of advantages
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:17 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Stun Gun View Post
This is more about you having different values, rather than talking about the actual topic. Ignorance is a tricky thing
Values ARE the topic though, the values of having transgender individuals in WOMEN's mma, and that brings into discussion the logic and categorization of transgender itself.

I'm not pushing my values on others, but I do think they should be discussed, as I'm willing to hear counterpoints to it. Because this is not about a person's individual values, which they are free to choose. It is a question of imposing those values on a sport, it's legislators, and viewers as a whole.

I will try to be nicer about it though as I understand it can be a personal topic for some, and Cowgirl has always been polite so it's only right for me to return to courtesy, even if we disagree on some things.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:19 AM   #74 (permalink)
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well this took a turn
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:24 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko View Post
Values ARE the topic though, the values of transgender individuals in WOMEN's mma, and that brings into discussion the logic and categorization of transgender itself.

I'm not pushing my values on others, but I do think they should be discussed, as I'm willing to hear counterpoints to it. Because this is not about a person's individual values, which they are free to choose. It is a question of imposing those values on a sport, it's legislators, and viewers as a whole.

I will try to be nicer about it though as I understand it can be a personal topic for some, and Cowgirl has always been polite so it's only right for me to return to courtesy at least, even if we disagree on some things.
I'm glad that you're able to stay respectful even though you have much different values with Cowgirl for example.

I just felt your post got off topic a bit, you started with something that made sense but near the end I felt it could have been said in a better method perhaps?
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:28 AM   #76 (permalink)
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I'm glad that you're able to stay respectful even though you have much different values with Cowgirl for example.

I just felt your post got off topic a bit, you started with something that made sense but near the end I felt it could have been said in a better method perhaps?
I suppose I could at that, will see if I can edit it nicer.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:30 AM   #77 (permalink)
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Also did you see the article I posted from MMA Junkie?
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:41 AM   #78 (permalink)
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well this took a turn
that was my fault i didnt know any of cowgirls personal life would be exposed
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:44 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Also did you see the article I posted from MMA Junkie?
Yes, and it's a good article, I agree with it. As I said earlier, the idea that a few hormones will even out everything or make everything "the same" is unsupported by true science or research.

If they did delve into it in an unbiased way, I'm positive the results would only confirm what our eyes and common sense can already see, that there are still obvious differences. Bone density and structure, organ structure, blood capacity, muscle structure and so on, let alone unrelated non-athletic things like reproductive ability, breastfeeding ability etc. That some isolated factors may be tweaked up or down (like ok maybe a single hormone or two like testosterone might be lowered artificially) is fine, but to pretend that ALL of those hundreds of complex factors are somehow magically taken care of, I just don't see it.

Watch Fallon's fights for yourself, that's as close to real facts and evidence as you'll get on this. I can't see how anyone can call that fair or "tilted" in Fallon's opponents' favor.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:54 AM   #80 (permalink)
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See, I got the feeling that wasn't Kanto's reasoning, which is why I asked . Speaking from experience, any strength advantage you have from being a guy, goes out the window when you start hormone therapy. Consider this, when Fallon started taking hormones, she also began taking an androgen blocker. She was preventing her body from producing testosterone. Again, speaking from experience, that kills the muscle mass, it's like starting all over again. Contrary to popular belief, hormone therapy isn't just about feminizing looks, the only thing it does for that is soften the skin, redistribute some body fat, and of course grow breasts. That's all surface deep, bigger changes happen internally which can't be seen. So, oldfan, to answer your question, no I don't believe there is any strength advantage in this situation.

As a person who has gone through this Daph has a pretty good point of reference as to the benefits/loss of physical strength. Whilst not Scientific proven, she has a better understanding than anybody as to how much advantage a transgender fighter would or wouldnt have over a naturally born female fighter.

For me, Im on the fence about whether I am, or am not for transgender females fighting other females in a sport that is predominantly about strength and causing damage to your opponent. That being said, 'IF' a licensing body grants her a licence, who am I to say whether she should or shouldn't be allowed to fight.

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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