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Old 08-12-2013, 04:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Didnt Dana say quite recently this guy would never get in the UFC?
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MMA-Sportsman View Post
I don't think a fight like that is fair for many discrepancies. The handicapped guy enters already with most of the people cheering for him - understandable - but unfair to the other guy. He also enters with the perfect excuse to lose. Unfair as well.

If there are clear disadvantages for him to fight with only one arm, for sure there are advantages as well. He is used to fight like that and while other fighters are subject to suffer injuries in that area, he is not - Vitor fought with a broken hand - a broken hand aches like hell, a missing hand does not. That's why the participation of double leg amputee Oscar Pistorius in the Olympic Games was so full of controversy. A simple blister on a toe could take a normal athlete out of the competition while he needed not to worry about that at all... or cramps.

Different categories is all what I mean.
Having the crowd cheering for you isn't necessarily an advantage. GSP has said more than once that he feels a lot of added pressure fighting in Montreal because he feels extra pressure to perform and win for all his home town fans that are cheering.

How is having an excuse to lose unfair? It doesn't affect the outcome of the fight in any way shape or form. Are you saying it is unfair to regular fighters emotions (haha)? Don't forget this guy has to deal with the fact he is missing half his arm. Something tells me that is more unfair than having a good excuse after you lose.

I don't understand your injuries comment at all. Guys like Oscar Pistorius have replacement prosthetic limbs. These prosthetics, like you said, cannot be injured. This fighter is simply missing the limb all together. I would understand your point if he was fighting with a prosthetic arm, that would be a ridiculous advantage. But to say he has an advantage because he can't injure his hand (because he doesn't have one) is ridiculous. If that were truly an advantage then why don't all fighters just use one hand! Then they never have to worry about injuring the other one!

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Didnt Dana say quite recently this guy would never get in the UFC?
If he did that is BS. The only possible advantage he has is that his forearm makes him weigh less. And i'm pretty sure a human forearm doesn't weight much.


According to some crappy source:
Quote:
The average human arm weights about 5% of a person's total body weight. The exact amount will also depend upon how much fat a person has in their arm. Some people have more fat into their arms than others.
And that's the whole arm.
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Old 08-12-2013, 12:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Having the crowd cheering for you isn't necessarily an advantage.
Where did I say it was an advantage for him? I said it is unfair to the other guy to work very hard and have the crowd cheering for his opponent by default specifically because he sustains an obvious disability.

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How is having an excuse to lose unfair?
Again. It is unfair to the other guy. Every time someone is hurt entering a fight and the info somehow leaks to the media, the fighter and his camp are bashed, specially if he loses, matters little to nothing if the info is true or not. Now you beat up an one arm man and what the crowd should think of you? "Well, man, congrats, but you just beat up an one arm man... c'mon...". Ppl are bashing Aldo for celebrating a victory over KZ because of his injury... How you celebrate a win over an one arm man? Even to yourself?
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I don't understand your injuries comment at all.
If you don't understand then, don't call my arguments ridiculous. I know you are better than that.
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Old 08-12-2013, 02:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Where did I say it was an advantage for him? I said it is unfair to the other guy to work very hard and have the crowd cheering for his opponent by default specifically because he sustains an obvious disability.


Again. It is unfair to the other guy. Every time someone is hurt entering a fight and the info somehow leaks to the media, the fighter and his camp are bashed, specially if he loses, matters little to nothing if the info is true or not. Now you beat up an one arm man and what the crowd should think of you? "Well, man, congrats, but you just beat up an one arm man... c'mon...". Ppl are bashing Aldo for celebrating a victory over KZ because of his injury... How you celebrate a win over an one arm man? Even to yourself?

If you don't understand then, don't call my arguments ridiculous. I know you are better than that.

Fair enough, I can see what you are saying with your first two points. The fact that the opponents win would be frowned upon could happen. But what if the one armed athlete continues to succeed? No one discredits a win over Matt Hammil because he is deaf, and that is a huge disadvantage. If this fighter were to somehow make it to a professional level the stuff you are talking about would have to stop. I'm sure the one armed fighter doesn't like being thought of that way, so to not allow him to compete because of something like perceived fan favoritism would just be a different kind of unfairness.


I don't understand your point of view I should have said. Like I said, athletes like Oscar Pistorius have replacement prosthetic limbs. This fighter does not. How is not being able to injure a hand an advantage if he can't use the hand at all?
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Old 08-12-2013, 04:34 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ape City View Post
But what if the one armed athlete continues to succeed?
He can succeed out of technique and toughness as Royce won over monsters like Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock or Cris Cyborg could eventually decapitate a low ranked male Flyweight, but they don't belong to the same category, IMO.
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No one discredits a win over Matt Hammil because he is deaf, and that is a huge disadvantage.
That is really debatable. The only thing "bad" is he can't hear his cornermen during the fight, right? I can't think of any other. But how many with perfect ears listen (and follow) to their corners instructions anyway?

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If this fighter were to somehow make it to a professional level the stuff you are talking about would have to stop.
What stuff will have to stop and why? Emit my opinion? If I have my reasons not to be fond of something I'll broadcast it anyway. I can get convinced in time as well and change my mind. That happens more than often.
There are members here against WMMA, so what? They can't say that no more just because the girls made to the UFC?

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Originally Posted by Ape City View Post
I'm sure the one armed fighter doesn't like being thought of that way, so to not allow him to compete because of something like perceived fan favoritism would just be a different kind of unfairness.
There's a whole Para-Olympics Games event and from there minor para-games for a reason and I never said he shouldn't be allowed to compete. What I emphasized in bold was that he is in a different category before my eyes.


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I don't understand your point of view I should have said. Like I said, athletes like Oscar Pistorius have replacement prosthetic limbs. This fighter does not. How is not being able to injure a hand an advantage if he can't use the hand at all?
Nah, you can still say "you don't get my point at all" any time, because that may happen regularly . It was the word "ridiculous" you used that was out of ordinary coming from you. No worries.

The disadvantages are obvious and hugely dominant over advantages, of course, but to highlight my idea he belongs to a different category, I pointed one advantage(it doesn't need to be a big one, but definetely a difference). What I mean is. He only fights with one hand. He is a specialist in fighting with only one hand. We can't compare his performance lacking a hand (his 100%) with the performance of a two hand fighter fighting with a hurt/broken hand, like Vitor did. The second does not train to fight with only one hand + he will be in pain. It would be like enter in a face slapping fight with a blind in a dark room.
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Old 08-12-2013, 07:22 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMA-Sportsman View Post
He can succeed out of technique and toughness as Royce won over monsters like Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock or Cris Cyborg could eventually decapitate a low ranked male Flyweight, but they don't belong to the same category, IMO.
I just don't really think having two hands should be a requirement to compete in MMA. I don't think there is any advantage that is big enough that they need to have their own category (para-MMA
) unless they want. If they want to compete with people with no disabilities I don't see why not. Realistically there is an incredibly low chance someone missing a hand will ever be able to compete in the pros.

Quote:
That is really debatable. The only thing "bad" is he can't hear his cornermen during the fight, right? I can't think of any other. But how many with perfect ears listen (and follow) to their corners instructions anyway?
Ha ha, true enough. I certainly think missing an arm is a worse disadvantage. But I think not being to hear your corner does kind of suck. Imagine what a huge advantage it would be fighting Nick Diaz, though.

Quote:
What stuff will have to stop and why? Emit my opinion? If I have my reasons not to be fond of something I'll broadcast it anyway. I can get convinced in time as well and change my mind. That happens more than often.
There are members here against WMMA, so what? They can't say that no more just because the girls made to the UFC?
No no no, sorry, I wasn't being clear. I'd never tell you to stop speaking your mind. When I said "the stuff you are talking about" I meant other fighters feeling cheated out of "true" victories and fans automatically supporting the disabled fighter. Matt Hammil doesn't get automatically cheered for (not that he would know ) and like I said I don't think too many people discredit wins over Hammil because of his disability. I know it's not as bad as missing a hand but I think it is the same idea.

Quote:
There's a whole Para-Olympics Games event and from there minor para-games for a reason and I never said he shouldn't be allowed to compete. What I emphasized in bold was that he is in a different category before my eyes.
Well to use the same example deaf people are technically disabled, and they actually have their own competition, the Deaflympics:

http://www.deaflympics.com/

No reason why the guy can't compete in Deaflympics and regular MMA.

Quote:
Nah, you can still say "you don't get my point at all" any time, because that may happen regularly . It was the word "ridiculous" you used that was out of ordinary coming from you. No worries.
I apologize for saying ridiculous. I try not to say things like that, my bad.

Quote:
The disadvantages are obvious and hugely dominant over advantages, of course, but to highlight my idea he belongs to a different category, I pointed one advantage(it doesn't need to be a big one, but definetely a difference). What I mean is. He only fights with one hand. He is a specialist in fighting with only one hand. We can't compare his performance lacking a hand (his 100%) with the performance of a two hand fighter fighting with a hurt/broken hand, like Vitor did. The second does not train to fight with only one hand + he will be in pain. It would be like enter in a face slapping fight with a blind in a dark room.
I just think he should have the option to test himself if he wants. It may never be a level playing field but I think it should be his choice whether or not his disability affects him.
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Old 08-12-2013, 08:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Great conversation, Ape. I'll just say once more I am NOT against fighters with disabilities to try themselves out in regular MMA or any other fighting contest. Remember how great of a grappler Jean Jacques Machado was and how many grappling contests he won brilliantly? And Tra Telligman? Guy lacks a whole lung and one pectoral muscle. How not to admire such warriors? As in my first post I said and repeat now: I admire them. Only the situation makes me a little uncorfortable. That's all I ment.

PS: And in good time, in honor of these unique challengers:

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Old 08-13-2013, 04:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Here's an article where Dana talks about it... this must have been AFTER the interview I read where he said he'd never let Newell in the UFC.

Quote:
By now just about everybody in the world has heard or read about the amazing story that is MMA fighter Nick Newell.

Newell was born with only one arm, but has managed to put together an incredibly impressive streak of wins in his MMA career, currently sitting with a perfect 9-0 record, with 8 wins coming by way of submission or knockout.

The Connecticut born fighter recently wrapped up his first major title when he won the XFC lightweight strap in early December, and just about everybody started to wonder if he would one day end up in the UFC.

As amazing as Newell’s story truly is, UFC President Dana White just isn’t sure he’ll ever have a home in the Octagon.

White admitted he didn’t know a lot about the opponents that Newell had beaten to get to his 9-0 record, but going undefeated on the local circuits versus competing against the best of the best in the UFC is a whole different animal.

“It’s hard to fight here with two arms,” said White. “It’s tough. There’s guys that we bring in that are considered top guys on the Ultimate Fighter that don’t ever really pan out and make it.”

The question was raised about Newell possibly earning his way into the UFC with an appearance on the Ultimate Fighter reality show, but White isn’t sure he’d even be licensed to fight in the state of Nevada, much less competing in any given season.

“Will the state of Nevada let him fight? Will the state of California let him fight? Would some of these bigger athletic commissions let him fight? Maybe he can get away with that in some of these other states. I don’t know, fighting with one arm is just craziness to me,” said White.

Judging by Newell’s determination to not only overcome his perceived handicap, it’s not likely he’s going to back down from his dream of one day fighting inside the Octagon. He’s changed plenty of people’s minds up till now, so what’s one more with convincing Dana White he deserves a place amongst the best fighters in the world.
http://www.mmaweekly.com/nick-newell...the-ufc-roster


and here's a video where he briefly mentions it:
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Old 08-13-2013, 10:56 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Great conversation, Ape. I'll just say once more I am NOT against fighters with disabilities to try themselves out in regular MMA or any other fighting contest. Remember how great of a grappler Jean Jacques Machado was and how many grappling contests he won brilliantly? And Tra Telligman? Guy lacks a whole lung and one pectoral muscle. How not to admire such warriors? As in my first post I said and repeat now: I admire them. Only the situation makes me a little uncorfortable. That's all I ment.

PS: And in good time, in honor of these unique challengers:

I thank you sir for the good debate and definitely see where you are coming from. Interesting to read Dana's take on it thanks killz.

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Old 08-15-2013, 12:38 PM   #20 (permalink)
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advantage this advantage that, if he's good enough he should be allowed to fight. If he gets the absolute shit beaten out of him then it's his fault, what's with this society of hand-holding. If the kid can beat legitimate fighters and earn his way into the UFC he should be allowed, it is doubtful that he will be able to with such a disability but it shouldn't be the deciding factor. Maybe it's an advantage, maybe it makes him work harder than everyone else. Nobody feels sorry for Forrest when he lost his belt because he broke his hand, let the kid fight and his record will speak for itself. If he leaves a fight bloodied and broken will people feed bad? I wouldn't, he made his choice to fight, he alone gets to deal with consequences and reap the benefits.
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