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Old 05-31-2007, 06:07 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll
Seemed like personal opinion and experience to me. That's something I can share or not, but not something I can agree or disagree with.

He did handle it poorly, but that doesn't mean I can handle it better. I would have never picked it up, since the author neither condemned the sport nor claimed to be an expert on it. He simply didn't like what he saw.

I'm getting off work now, but if you want to make a list of specific offenses you think the CBS author made, post them, and I'll respond to them tomorrow.
By getting paid to do this, it's my personal opinion that he should be informed. He offered his opinion like it was a fact and while it was just an opinion, it involved some things that he, frankly, just made up and/or didn't offer the whole truth about.

That's my beef. See my post and let me know if you think I did a little bit better job, because I did exactly what you asked before you asked it.
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:35 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll
None of the above isn't an option?
Of the two, who's side are you on? If it's neither, why waste your time posting in this thread proving a point that they both happened to stereotype, they both are oppinionated, and they both think they know about the sport. WHO is in the wrong, both of them? I think the blogger is justified in his response, I don't see any journalists typing neat air tight logical articles that magically take both sides of an argument.

Quote:
Motive never justifies tactics, unless you work for a government institution.
Give the blogger a break, just because Jasvl doesn't agree with how it was handled doesn't mean it's not a positive step on letting uninformed journalists know where they stand to an actual MMA fan, not the "watchers" or your "typical mma fan" which the blogger refers to, notice he didn't have to type "typical" in front of mma fan.

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Yes, and an example of such an article is the blogger's response. The only difference is their personal opinions, which they've raised to universal truths. The article's author wasn't entertained by the fight, whereas the blogger was. Judging the worth of the sport by their lone opinions is a mistake in both cases.
You don't think supporting the technique, styles, and appreciating the work of a mixed martial artist is a universal truth? For someone as logical as you, I wouldn't think you'd have a hard time understanding what the blogger is trying to prove here. But then again, maybe the journalists is correct with his ASSUMPTIONS of MMA.

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How so? The blogger himself says that the typical UFC fan is looking for the exact same thing the article's author was.
Are we typical UFC fans? Sh*t I don't like them either.

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Nonsense. The blogger referred to new fans blanketly as 'rednecks' and 'pro wrestling' fans. He condemns the author for basing his opinion on the reaction of the bar crowd, when the author gave no indication that his opinion was based on anything other than what he watched on the screen. The blogger is no different than who he was responding to. Ignorance, assumption, and rhetoric abounds in both cases. They just happen to be 'arguing' for opposing sides.
Another imperfection, sorry the blogger let one slip in to a journalist who uses the same method. Maybe he was trying to get his perspective across by relating to the journalist's style, or maybe he was overcome by emotion from all the MMA slander that's been going on. An emotional blogger? Oh no! Sorry it wasn't reduced to a pure logic concept to satisfy you.

Quote:
Actually, the more I look at these two articles, the more I see Dahlberg being condemned for having a personal opinion, and not liking a meal after taking one bite, neither of which justify the reaction he received.
What's the journalist's actual oppinion based on? The sport of MMA? Don't you think his oppinion would be different if he understood MMA, and didn't base his oppinions on media and "typical ufc fans". I won't say that pistachio ice cream tastes like sh*t, because I've never tasted it. Like I said earlier, the blogger IS justified in his response, the journalist wrote a bad misleading article, the blogger responded. It may have not been as perfect as you would've liked it to be, but I'm not going to second guess or question this kid's oppinion because Jasvl didn't agree with how he handled it.
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Old 05-31-2007, 06:36 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 05-31-2007, 08:18 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Alula
Sounds like your typical UFC fan. These guys aren't interested in seeing a sport, they're interested in seeing savagery.

I hope he takes the time to read what you had to say. I also hope he takes it into consideration.
You're a friggin idiot. You're post was completely stupid and you OBVIOUSLY know nothing about UFC fans. UFC fans are MMA fans just like Pride you ignorant ass. Some ignorant and new people just don't get it as they don't in Pride too.
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Old 06-01-2007, 09:39 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Scape
Of the two, who's side are you on? If it's neither, why waste your time posting in this thread proving a point that they both happened to stereotype, they both are oppinionated, and they both think they know about the sport.
I waste my time because there are people here that believe otherwise, in spite of the observable truth. Some of them might be willing to open their eyes, in spite of a fear of what they might see.

Quote:
WHO is in the wrong, both of them?
At this point, just the blogger, although I'm open to anyone who wants to point out specifics about the original article.

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I think the blogger is justified in his response,
Of course you do; you agree with him.

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I don't see any journalists typing neat air tight logical articles that magically take both sides of an argument.
You're clearly not looking.
From the Edge of Madness to Fighting’s Mainstream - New York Times


Quote:
Give the blogger a break, just because Jasvl doesn't agree with how it was handled doesn't mean it's not a positive step on letting uninformed journalists know where they stand to an actual MMA fan, not the "watchers" or your "typical mma fan" which the blogger refers to, notice he didn't have to type "typical" in front of mma fan.
It doesn't mean it is a positive step, either.



Quote:
You don't think supporting the technique, styles, and appreciating the work of a mixed martial artist is a universal truth? For someone as logical as you, I wouldn't think you'd have a hard time understanding what the blogger is trying to prove here. But then again, maybe the journalists is correct with his ASSUMPTIONS of MMA.
You're ignoring the content of the blog for the sake of the ideology.



Quote:
Are we typical UFC fans? Sh*t I don't like them either.
Then why are you and the blogger giving the article's author such a hard time? You both agree with him.



Quote:
Another imperfection, sorry the blogger let one slip in to a journalist who uses the same method. Maybe he was trying to get his perspective across by relating to the journalist's style, or maybe he was overcome by emotion from all the MMA slander that's been going on. An emotional blogger? Oh no! Sorry it wasn't reduced to a pure logic concept to satisfy you.
Rationalization for the sake of an ideology. Why won't you go to the same lengths to justify the original author's 'imperfections?' Oh, that's right, you happen to disagree with him.



Quote:
What's the journalist's actual oppinion based on? The sport of MMA?
As the author clearly states, his opinion was initially based on stereotypes from the early days of UFC, now it's based on witnessing the Liddell/Jackson fight in a bar. He made it clear that his opinion was his own and made no derogatory statements about the sport itself. He simply wasn't entertained by what he saw. For that he's being crucified.

Quote:
Don't you think his oppinion would be different if he understood MMA, and didn't base his oppinions on media and "typical ufc fans".
He didn't do either, so I'm not sure how to answer this one. I get the feeling this guy could study MMA for a lifetime and still not like it. Remember, he doesn't like boxing, either.

Quote:
I won't say that pistachio ice cream tastes like sh*t, because I've never tasted it.
You'll notice that the article's author didn't comment on UFC until he tasted it.

Quote:
Like I said earlier, the blogger IS justified in his response, the journalist wrote a bad misleading article, the blogger responded.
No, he didn't. He simply wrote an article stating why he thinks MMA is destined to remain on the fringe of mainstream along with boxing and gave his reasons why.

Quote:
It may have not been as perfect as you would've liked it to be, but I'm not going to second guess or question this kid's oppinion because Jasvl didn't agree with how he handled it.
You'll notice I never asked you to. I simply pointed out the obvious. If you still want to ignore it, fine, but it makes you no different than the people you're flailing your arms at. The only difference is which side of the fence you're looking at.
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That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.

Last edited by jasvll : 06-01-2007 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 06-01-2007, 10:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan
First, Dahlberg is clearly an idiot who knows even less about mixed martial arts than he does about sports journalism or boxing.
Why?

Quote:
I still don't understand why the mass media hasn't picked up on some actual fans of the sport instead of these guys who pretend like they understand the numbers, the fighting styles and the point of the contest.
He's a sports columnist, not an MMA or boxing columnist, and he didn't claim to have any knowledge that he didn't possess. In fact, he went out of his way to show that he was an outsider looking in.

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It doesn't need to be me, because there are 3 or 4 dozen guys on this forum alone who are more qualified to write this article than a bandwagon boy like Dahlberg.
Most of those on this forum are very much bandwagon boys.

Quote:
He says that boxing fans went home happy after the De La Hoya v Mayweather fight went home happy. I have friends that are professional boxers who admit that the fight was boring and I have a hard time believing that such a slow fight could be enjoyed by mass-culture in America.
So, you think he's wrong? I do too, but his opinion is no less valid than either of ours. None of them are based on anything more than personal preference and anecdotal evidence.

Quote:
He says that MMA packs the joints with "not so rich and famous" but clearly he hasn't watched the last half dozen event, especially the ones in LA, Sacramento and Anaheim. Stars come out for the average MMA event. They don't do that for the average boxing match anymore, if they ever did.
He said 'mostly.' If you watch the last half dozen events, you'll see that of the thousands in attendance, most are just that.

Quote:
He pokes fun at Liddell for looking out of shape.
So have many on this board. Most recently, someone commented that he looked pregnant as he fell to the mat.

Quote:
That's how Liddell looks. Period. He can say that it's because he's "out of shape" and "doesn't care about the fight" but that's Liddell's build.
He didn't say either of those things. He described how Liddell looked and referenced a 'gossip columnist's' claim to back up why it 'appeared' to the author that Liddell didn't 'seem to take the fight too seriously.' According to Liddell in the post-fight interview, this is exactly the case.

Quote:
No one among boxing's top ten heavyweights has the athleticism of Andrei Arlovski or Mirko CroCop, and De La Hoya and Mayweather look like scrawny b*tches next to Sean Sherk.
How is that relevant? The author said Chuck Liddell didn't look to be in great shape and appeared not to take the fight seriously. He said nothing of the athletic ability or work ethic of MMArtists or boxers, in general.

Quote:
I guess he tries to make the point that Liddell isn't much of an athlete, but that's fine. If he wants to step in the octagon with Liddell, or even just hold the thai-pads for him during training, he can do that.
I doubt he wants to.

Quote:
He, like every other conservative idiot, makes reference to McCain's human ****fighting comment.
First, how do you know he's conservative? Second, he made it clear that he was in a position of ignorance before watching UFC71 and that all he knew of the sport was from it's mid-90s notoriety. He didn't say the sport was 'human ****fighting.' He said he was expecting to see 'human ****fighting' and didn't.

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Apart from the fact that McCain is actually an advocate for the modern UFC,
No, he isn't, but if I'm mistaken, by all means cite your source.

Quote:
now that it has established regulations, and the fact that it is legal in McCain's home state of Arizona, that portion of the argument is long gone. If he was really a sports journalist, Dahlberg would know that.
Nothing suggests he didn't know that MMA was regulated by many states in the US. He repeatedly referred to it as a sport, not once as a 'spectacle,' the typical euphamism for people that genuinely hate the existence of MMA. He was aware of its recent SI covers, as well as it's recent surge to the mainstream.

Quote:
If this had been boxing, the fight would have been 36 minutes of me yawning while people try and figure out exactly how much money for each uneventful minute of dancing they have lost. If this had been boxing, the fight would have gone to a decision like every other boring matchup any of the 4 major boxing organizations has put together since Tyson v Holyfield.
He doesn't like boxing, either.

Quote:
But, perhaps most importantly, if this was boxing, the sport would be dead.
Not dead, but certainly in the ICU. Again, the author agrees.

Quote:
He does say that the UFC is a monopoly, which is a mark of his ignorance of the hundreds of smaller shows the UFC pulls from, but also of the Japanese MMA machine that controlled PRIDE and still controls K-1 and the ever more successful DEEP.
He never once used the term monopoly and what he did say is 100% true. UFC and any other MMA promotion has complete control of its fighters and events, unlike boxing promotions, which are much more heavily regulated by the athletic commissions, thanks to the Muhammed Ali Safety Act.

Quote:
As I have said, if he was actually a sports journalist, he would know these kinds of things, but, as he has made abundantly clear with his generalizations, misquotations and ****ogies that make as much sense as calling this article resonable, he has no idea what he's doing.
'Sports' is not equal to 'MMA.' He made no claim to be an MMA expert and went to great lengths to show that he was sharing the opinion of an outsider looking in.

Quote:
He also says that the UFC was trying to expand its core audience with the UFC 71 card. Not as far as anyone knows or cares, because it market expands regardless, with every event that it puts together.
UFC doesn't grow because MMA is irresistable. UFC expands due to the execution of tactics that follow an overall strategy. This includes everything from buying WFA to set up a marketable rematch for Liddell, to negotiations with HBO, to pushing for the cover of SI. UFC's popularity isn't and accident, nor is it inexorable.

Quote:
Something that could not be said for boxing, at any point during its history.
Nonsense.

Quote:
To top it off, Dahlberg ends with a sentence that would make even a forth grade English teach stamp an F on a paper: "Something it doesn't need a bad reputation."

From AP:
Quote:
In the interest of timeliness, this story is fed directly from the Associated Press newswire and may contain occasional typographical errors.
I wonder how he would spell 'fourth?'

Quote:
It seems appropriate, since it makes about as much sense as the sad attempt at anti-MMA propaganda that the article was.
There was nothing anti-MMA about that article, other than the author's personal opinion of the sport. He wasn't entertained by what he saw, the end. These witch hunts are ridiculous and simply give the few legitimate anti-mma witches fuel for their 'articles.'

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rogan
That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.

Last edited by jasvll : 06-01-2007 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:34 AM   #17 (permalink)
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jesus jsvll... i hear what you're saying, but you say it's just an opinion piece, & he shouldn't be flamed for it. he ABSOLUTELY should be flamed for it. he's a paid professional writer, don't you think his opinion should be, oh i don't know, INFORMED?!? that's what he gets paid to do: have a subject, do the research, & then write about it. it looks like he had the subject, & wrote about it. what good is an opinion piece if it isn't at the very least, informed?!? it doesn't matter if we like what he wrote, or what he wrote about or that it's just an opinion.
even opinions should be informed. if they're not, then he's not a good writer, which he clearly is not.
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Old 06-01-2007, 11:43 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jehu pitchfork
jesus jsvll... i hear what you're saying, but you say it's just an opinion piece, & he shouldn't be flamed for it. he ABSOLUTELY should be flamed for it. he's a paid professional writer, don't you think his opinion should be, oh i don't know, INFORMED?!? that's what he gets paid to do: have a subject, do the research, & then write about it. it looks like he had the subject, & wrote about it. what good is an opinion piece if it isn't at the very least, informed?!? it doesn't matter if we like what he wrote, or what he wrote about or that it's just an opinion.
even opinions should be informed. if they're not, then he's not a good writer, which he clearly is not.
Unless he pretended to have more knowledge than he did (and he did make it clear exactly how much he didn't know) I don't agree. MMA is no different than any other sport. He took a look at something relatively new and didn't like what he saw. There's no shortage of writers with limited MMA knowledge who took a look and liked/love what they saw, but they not only get a free pass here, they're encouraged. There's no difference, other than the personal opinion. The article was clearly not intended to be a primer on MMA or UFC, it was just a recounting of one man's first experience with UFC.

The author didn't tell anyone else not to watch MMA, and anyone who would base their opinion of MMA off the second-hand opinion of someone who watched a PPV in a bar once probably isn't bright enough to become an educated MMA fan to begin with.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rogan
That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.

Last edited by jasvll : 06-01-2007 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 06-01-2007, 03:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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He does acknowledge the UFC's growth, does state some major accomplishments as far as new media coverage, and sports magazines, but still, anyone can use google then form an opinion, but still not understand the sport. It really isn’t as outlandish as other articles but there needs to be a line drawn somewhere, why not here?

The blogger may have come down a little hard on him, but why would he go to such lengths? I honestly don't believe the blog is a direct attack against Dahlberg, but a retaliation effort. Yes, Dahlberg may have been used as an example to prove points way beyond Dahlberg's comprehension of MMA, but that's the point. He doesn't understand MMA, that's why I or others are upset, regardless of him "slightly" admitting he's new to the sport. He only refers to mixed martial arts as new, I see no admittance, but judging by his knowledge it's quite obvious. Yet Mixed Martial Arts has been around before Dahlberg’s father was swimming in his own father's nutsack. Just because the media is starting to catch on doesn't invite him to come and play. He states all the facts of the UFC, media coverage, attendance, bank, which some how none of them are negative, do we even have negative media other than misinformed journalists and politicians? I wouldn't consider myself biased here siding with the blogger, because I do understand where Dahlberg’s coming from. I also understand that where he's coming from is where I find flaw.

His opinion is baseless (no grounds for an article, he saw one event and got his "taste") Maybe he should try the four-course meal. Then I'd be happy to see where he's coming from, Pro-MMA or against. Atleast we'd both have grounds to pass judgment. The more that speak up (our blogger here), the more the journalists may reconsider typing an article before understanding what he's typing an article on. There are a lot of other things going on in sports that he could be more qualified to write for, he chose MMA, that was his choice and mistake. I'd get flamed on a sewing forum if I wrote an article generalizing myself as someone who understands sewing, wouldn't I? Yet I posted some very factual statements about sewing machines, how fast they are, and how much revenue one company got over an another, but threw in a couple of opinions about how boring it was. But still I’d be getting hateful comments sewn into my clothes by random die hard sewing enthusiasts. MMA is not an easy thing to write about. Why half-ass it, why attempt it? It'll be here for a very long time, seems like a good opportunity to learn.

My argument Jasvl is of him not being qualified to even have the acronym MMA leave his lips. If he likes, he can graduate before he tries to educate. Then I'll be willing to see his point of views for what they are.

My eyes are open though, I understand why you defend Dahlberg, he stated some common facts and then his opinion. However, I don't understand why he attempted to write an article on mixed martial arts being a so-called "new" watcher (it belittles his opinion and makes him seem foolish).

I also understand why you'd be upset with the blogger due to his over-dramatic attempts to prove Dahlberg's wrong in every possible way. However, I see it as a decent callout to all journalists attempting to write on the sport. They research everything else before they write about it. Since MMA is so foreign to them, why not educate themselves? Then when educated they need to provide factual evidence as to why they enjoy or dislike MMA, we'd love to hear from them, and their thoughts on the fights of course. I stress this so much because I thought the UFC old days were brutal as sh*t and turned my cheek, throughout the years I learned the aspects of MMA and have become a huge fan.

I understood it, and became a fan, everything else followed.

Other than understanding Dahlberg here, and how he may be misinformed, I also understand the content of the blogger very well. Seems more like Dahlberg isn't the one being rational here, he needs to educate himself before stating his reasoning. This is what I've been trying to say from the very beginning. I don't feel I'm biased here, I just understand what Dhalberg doesn't. The blogger is on the opposing side, I'll take the blogger's side of the two. I also read your article, which was great, I can't wait for the day they're all like that.

It just seems like Mr. Dahlberg needs to surround himself with actual fans instead of his typicals, but would he actually go out of his way to do something so obvious, or does he prefer making blind opinions into journalism? Once again, I agree with the facts he stated about the UFC and it's market, but I don't agree with his opinions solely because I don't feel he has any basis behind them other then a Liddell/Rampage fight. Notice he doesn't mention one of the other fights on the card. He's clearly there riding a media bandwaggon, and knows nothing more about MMA than what he knows about factual opinions. Sounds like grounds for flaming.

Last edited by Green Scape : 06-01-2007 at 03:38 PM.
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Old 06-01-2007, 03:39 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Jasvll, your acting like the writer of the article has the right to an opinion but the blogger doesnt. They both have the right to an opinion but its just a matter of which one you agree with. If your a fan of mma I dont see why you wouldnt take the bloggers side if your gonna take a side.
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