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Old 08-18-2014, 03:46 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydebankBlitz View Post
Mir has went 4-2, beating Big Nog by KO, Brock Lesnar by Submission, Hardonk by Submission and whoever the hell Dan Christiansen is by Decision. He lost to Marcio Cruz after a long lay off, fair enough, and at the time Brandon Vera was 7-0 with 3 UFC wins and 3 stoppages. It's not like Vera was a weak opponent for anyone then.

Herring beat Cheick Kongo the fight before he faced Brock, and Kongo recently competed for the Bellator title (after really only getting worse since back then). You're right that he never really beat anyone, and I didn't know he actually WAS rated, but for a 1-1 guy to face a 28-14 guy and dominate him is impressive really regardless of who each of the people are.

He was old, sure, but he was the UFC Champion, coming off of beating Tim Sylvia (meh) and stopping Gonzaga (which in any timeline is a solid enough cap to your collection). His 5 year run going into the Lesnar fight was 6-3, defeating Liddell, Ortiz and Belfort along the way, and losing to Liddell and Belfort in return. Still though. You're holding Brock to the level as if he was a hall of famer. This was a 3-1 ROOKIE stepping in there with a Hall of Famer in UFC, who was also the current Heavyweight Champion.

I never got the argument that Brock should have been stopped. He WON the fine. If you are capable of recovering and winning the fight, then it should NEVER be stopped. The reason fights are stopped is because the guy has NO way of recovering, as in the opponent will be punching him until he dies or gets knocked out. Brock even smiled coming out for the second round. He got his ass handed to him by a dude who handed every opponent he'd ever faced their asses....and Brock survived. But not only did he survive, his opponent was so devoid of energy that Brock took the fight. Specifically in your title fight, unless you go limp, you're in the fight.

I don't have him really being any of those (Haven't actually seen Sergei fight, probably have him beating Bigfoot but it's close as hell). I'm not saying by any means that Brock is up there in the greats. Unlike most, I tribute NONE of his downfall to his illness. Who was he fighting? Cain? Best or second best HW of all time. Overeem? Fuknuggetry aside he's one of the most skillful HWs in the world. I suppose Carwin, whom as I said was 12-0 with 12 first round finishes.

I don't think Brock was a "hypejob". If the UFC was truly feeding him opponents, he wouldn't have faced a former heavyweight champion, the current heavyweight champion, a guy with like 40 fights, a guy who had stopped every single person he ever faced etc. etc. You have to consider Brock as a rookie. You're holding him to championship standards because he won it. Would you really expect any 5-1 guy to EVER beat Cain Velasquez? Fedor at 5-1 gets mauled even worse than Brock did. Brock went in there with absolutely no MMA experience, and took on people we all know and are able to talk about.

Here are the first 8 opponents of the 4 top ranked guys all time in UFC from my other thread.

GSP
Ivan Menjivar- 4-0
Justin Bruckmann - 4-1
Travis Galbraith - 5-1
Thomas Denny - 10-9
Pete Spratt - 12-6
Karo Parisyan - 10-2
Jay Hieron - 4-0
Matt Hughes - 37-4 [Current UFC Welterweight Champion]

Anderson Silva
Raimundo Pinheiro - 1-1
Fabrício Camões - 1-0
Luiz Azeredo - 2-1
Jose Barreto - 0-0
Claudionor Fontinelle - 5-4-1
Tetsuji Kato - 13-2
Israel Albuquerque - 0-2
Hayato Sakurai - 18-0-2

Fedor Emelianenko
Martin Lazarov - 0-0
Levon Lagvilava - 1-2
Hiroya Takada - 0-0
Ricardo Arona - 2-2
Tsuyoshi Kohsaka - 19-10-2
Mihaiil Apostolov - 0-0
Kerry Schall - 5-2
Renato Sobral - 19-2

Jon Jones
Brad Bernard - 0-1
Carlos Eduardo - 2-1
Anthony Pina - 0-0
Ryan Verrett - 1-3
Parker Porter - 2-0
Moyses Gabin - 2-1
Andre Gusmao - 5-0
Stephan Bonnar - 12-4

Brock Lesnar
Min Soo Kim - 2-5
Frank Mir - 11-3 [Former UFC Heavyweight Champ]
Heath Herring - 28-13
Randy Couture - 16-8 [2x UFC Heavyweight Champ {Current}, Former UFC Light Heavyweight Champ, Hall of Famer]
Frank Mir - 12-3
Shane Carwin - 12-0
Cain Velasquez - 8-0
Alistair Overeem - 35-11 [Former Strikeforce & Dream Heavyweight Champ {Kind of current both}]


To say Brock was a hype job, even though he was successful against the level he was, is a big jump. GSP's opponent level was actually very impressive, but imo still not comparable to Brock's.

I've had the same opinion on this topic since it was current... too many flaws and inconsistancies when it comes to the Brock story line....

Good god I just hope they never induct him..
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Old 08-18-2014, 07:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
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If they induct him, it's mainly for impact. Isn't Royce inducted? He probably had less fights than Brock, and in terms of establishing the sport as a brand name, probably a much lesser impact.

Brock might well be the most successful 8 fight competitor of all time. It's unfortunate that he didn't join when he was a bit younger, or that he didn't really have the time to establish his skills to a peak level before having to get out of there.
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Old 08-19-2014, 12:50 AM   #13 (permalink)
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I personally don't think Brock Lesnar deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. He was a champion but several others who are actually in the Hall of Fame deserve to be in there. Minus Stephen Bonnar in my opinion.
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Old 08-19-2014, 03:17 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Yeah I never understood the Stephan Bonnar thing..
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:04 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Well the Stephen Bonnar thing is similar Dana White's comment that the whole season one cast belongs in the Hall of Fame. I can understand that for guys like Diego Sanchez and Kenny Florian but Lodune Sincade? Maybe half the cast belongs but that's it.
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Old 08-20-2014, 07:25 AM   #16 (permalink)
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It was a definite msg to cut Okami, Fitch, Shields, Volkmann, and anybody else who fights in a risk adverse fashion. So the moment they lose one or two they're out. Imagine if every fight card had those style of fights...the sport would lose interest. Even for enthusiasts we need to see action.

Out of all those I liked Shields though. Hope he does well. It is better for the sport to have other orgs otherwise a lot more fighters would have to choose a new career.
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Old 08-21-2014, 01:25 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Well there are always going to be other organizations besides the UFC. They may not be able to pay well or get the best fighters but they will be there. Honestly if Shields becomes champion that's an accomplishment.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:43 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kantowrestler View Post
Well there are always going to be other organizations besides the UFC. They may not be able to pay well or get the best fighters but they will be there. Honestly if Shields becomes champion that's an accomplishment.
I think he will. He's elite. He had a couple of losses and got cut... he was literally on the cusp of a title shot with a win over Lombard.

Mike freakin Pyle is still in the UFC mix trying to break even the top 10 and Shields is out in the cold even though Shields choked Mike Pyle out in the first round when they fought.

Jake Shields track record is legendary.... he's defeated Robbie Lawler, Tyron Woodley, Dan Henderson, Carlos Condit, Damian Maia, Sexiyama, Paul Daley, Martin Kampmann, Mike Pyle, Yushin Okami, Sakurai, Kikuchi, Mayhem Miller and a slew of other competition that even though were not ranked were very tough fighters.... guys like Ryan Ford here. Jake deserves to be competing with the very best..... but they would rather keep guys like Diego Sanchez and Tom Lawlor...

The politics behind why they cut and keep fighters is all Dana White. The top 10 ranked fighters is ridiculous as a system the way they use it. And the UFC does not have all of the Best fighters in the world. They just really want to put on a good show.

They have sacrificed one to achieve the other.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Yeah, there honestly used to be a time when Dana White kept the best in the world regardless of style. The Fox deal is what changed things. He wants ratings and as a result guys like Shields have been sent to a still tough but not top talent pool.
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Old 09-24-2014, 05:18 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Bump, we're getting closer to this fight. Shields collecting Ryan Fords scalp is impressive if he can pull it off... Ford is a beast under the radar.

Even though I'm not a fan of the way Dana has been running the UFC as of late I'd love to see Jake back in the octagon. He's got unfinished business there.
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