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Old 01-05-2008, 10:15 PM   #11 (permalink)
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If Rich Franklin(A schoolteacher) could be a MW champ and a top MMA fighter than why can't Floyd Mayweather(Best boxer right now).

I'm sure Franklin wasn't picked last in Gym Class growing up, but Athletic ability like Mayweather's is very very rare. Also a boxer is already used to getting hit and conditioning and training for fights.

A boxer couldn't just enter an MMA fight and rely soley on thier boxing skills because they would be taken down and subbed or GnP'd, but if a boxer really trained hard and learned kicks, TD's, Wrestling, subs, TD defense as well as bieng able to apply thier striking to an MMA fight than there is no reason to believe a top level boxer couldn't do really well in MMA.

The reality is that guys like Mayweather wouldn't sit out of boxing for 3-4 years to learn a sport that pays a fraction of what he makes boxing. He would lose out on close to $100,000,000 in 3-4 years. Franklin on the other hand has made more $$ in his 6 years or so of fighting than he woulda made teaching English class for 20 years, but that still equals pennies compared to what guys like De La Hoya or Mayweather make.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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You also need to remember the money is spread around amongst more fighters on a general MMA card when compared to a boxing card. Also people do get kind of mesmerized by fighters like Floyd making so much money a fight where most boxers are generally outside of a ppv pulling in something close to low to mid level popular MMA fighters salary.

At the end of the day I love both. I grew up watching boxing and competing in the sport. To me the difference is seriously apple and oranges. I do think if a boxer really put the time in he could do some damage in MMA. A good case of this would be someone like Kermit Citron who has a wrestling backround. Most of the guys seem to just act like they could step in the cage and compete though, where Ive never really seen an MMA fighter say they could jump in and compete with boxers right off the bat.

Im kind of tired of guys like Lampley though bashing MMA every chance he gets. Its interesting how they say its to brutal and then hold up fights like Gatti/Ward as their best fights which really wernt much about technique and more about beating the shit out of eachother.
Ya i agree with you. Lampley does try to bash the sport but Max Kellerman actually ended up refuting him live on HBO which was fair. Joe Rogan though seems to do just as much bashing on the other end "It's a dying breed." I think boxers have gotten defensive because they see MMA as being a legit threat. If you ask the "average joe" on the street they are saying how MMA is so much more advanced and technical. I'm not here to argue the techniques of the two sports but that would probably piss me off. The average joe doesn't think about reflexes or shoulder rolls, backstepping etc. They just see "punching."

I am with you though, I am a fan of both. I grew up in martial arts and transitioned into boxing out of detroit's Kronk Gym. I am now going to transition to a good submission school just for fun and love of the sports.

I actually like the discussion this thread has gotten. I was expecting a lot of flames and even prepared my yellow flame suit It just seemed like a lot of people were immediately writing off mayweather and other boxers assuming they wouldn't make adjustments. But anyone (wrestler boxer etc) that is at the highest level of recognition would most definately make proper adjustments. I also agree that Cintron would be fun to watch in MMA. He has been to Kronk a few times as he is trained under Manny. He has ridiculous power and amazing balance (no doubt due to his wrestling background).
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I disagree about boxers being better athletes. Anyone can learn to box, and be very successful, but obviously the TOP guys will all be very athletic. Look at the UFC champs for example: Sean Sherk, Georges St Pierre, Anderson Silva, Rampage Jackson, Randy Couture. You think boxers are more athletic than those people?
*pounds quote*

You make some interesting points, but I think it's important to look at how long both sports have been around. As you mentioned, MMA is still considerably young, whereas boxing is a sport that has essentially existed since the 12th, in one form or another.

However, if you look at the early boxers following commercialization of the sport, they honestly don't stack up much differently to the Tank Abbott's of the early UFC. Compare Floyd Mayweather to a boxer from 50 years ago, and the difference is undeniable. Technically and athletically, Mayweather (or any boxer of this generation for that matter) is well beyond what pre-existed him.

I believe the growth and evolution of boxers however, is much slower than that of mixed martial artists. Look at early cagefighters such as Keith Hackney compared to the Matt Hughes/GSP's of the division. That drastic evolutiuon of one-dimensional martial artist/brawler to athletic mixed martial artist came in a matter of 10 years of less.

I'm not an expert in the field of boxing, but I do consider myself fairly knowledgeable about MMA, and I just have to say that MMA simply takes just as much athletic ability (if not more) than boxing does because there's simply more to consider.

You mentioned how boxers need quick reflexes, which is true, but reflexes and athleticism are aspects in all aspects of MMA, not just the striking aspect, unlike boxing.

Boxing is a part of mixed martial arts, so the transition to MMA isn't impossible. It's just very overwhelming considering how much there is to MMA. Boxing is one-dimensional, and I'm not saying that in an insulting manner, I'm simply stating there is far less to athletically/technically be prepared for than in MMA.

Kenflo may have been a soccer player, but I doubt Mayweather would be athletic/dexterous as Kenflo off his back. Athleticism helps in MMA, it helps in all sports, but its not imperative in order to be successful. Hell, look at Melvin Guillard. All the athletic ability in the world, can he apply it to MMA beyond striking and wrestling? Not really, he's been getting tooled by guys that are technically less athletic than he is.

Hell, Maradonna wasn't that athletic and he was still a hell of a soccer player.

Last edited by Fedor>all : 01-05-2008 at 11:06 PM.
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:04 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The problem with Floyd transfering from boxing is he has to change everything he already knows. If he uses his boxing stance in an MMA fight, he won't be able to stand for the next few days cause his legs will get kicked constantly.

Also, his style of striking is defensive. He uses those big gloves to block punches and protect himself. He won't have that safety net with MMA gloves. Also, he has had a history of hand problems and bone breaks, so less protection in his gloves won't help.

I was into boxing before MMA. So I'm really not trying to bash, but they are totally different sports. The technique's used in each DO NOT apply to one another. You can use punches from boxing in MMA, but your stance and the way you throw it has to be different.

As for boxers joining MMA, they can do it successfully if they train for it. Florian already trained BJJ before getting on TUF. Rich Franklin didn' train a ton, but he did train. Thats the key point. Boxers have to train in MMA to be successful and so far, the ones who have gotten into the sport have failed because they didn't train all aspects of MMA.
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Kenflo couldn't do Boxing just like Mayweather can't do MMA. He would pretty much have to become a jui-jitzu stylist because everyone would always be looking to take him down.
Not really, Marcus Davis was a boxer and he's a force to be reckoned with. Plus Mayweather is an even better boxer that Davis, plus he's pretty young, why couldn't be able to transition in?
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:08 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fedor>all View Post
*pounds quote*

You make some interesting points, but I think it's important to look at how long both sports have been around. As you mentioned, MMA is still considerably young, whereas boxing is a sport that has essentially existed since the 12th, in one form or another.

However, if you look at the early boxers following commercialization of the sport, they honestly don't stack up much differently to the Tank Abbott's of the early UFC. Compare Floyd Mayweather to a boxer from 50 years ago, and the difference is undeniable. Technically and athletically, Mayweather (or any boxer of this generation for that matter) is well beyond what pre-existed him.

I believe the growth and evolution of boxers however, is much slower than that of mixed martial artists. Look at early cagefighters such as Keith Hackney compared to the Matt Hughes/GSP's of the division. That drastic evolutiuon of one-dimensional martial artist/brawler to athletic mixed martial artist came in a matter of 10 years of less.

I'm not an expert in the field of boxing, but I do consider myself fairly knowledgeable about MMA, and I just have to say that MMA simply takes more athletic ability than boxing does because there's simply more to consider, if you want to be an upper echelon fighter that is.

You mentioned how boxers need quick reflexes, which is true, but reflexes and athleticism are aspects in all aspects of MMA, not just the striking aspect, unlike boxing.

Boxing is a part of mixed martial arts, so the transition to MMA isn't impossible. It's just very overwhelming considering how much there is to MMA. Boxing is one-dimensional, and I'm not saying that in an insulting manner, I'm simply stating there is far less to athletically/technically be prepared for than in MMA.

Kenflo may have been a soccer player, but I doubt Mayweather would be athletic/dexterous as Kenflo off his back. Athleticism helps in MMA, it helps in all sports, but its not imperative in order to be successful.

Hell, Maradonna wasn't that athletic and he was still a hell of a soccer player.

/rant
Hey thanks for the reply. I actually mean no disrespect to your post but that response is the very problem that prompted me to write my initial post. You quote: "I just have to say that MMA simply takes more athletic ability than boxing does because there's simply more to consider, if you want to be an upper echelon fighter that is. "

Would you agree Kos is upper echelon? He was a wrestler. I wrestled in high school and boxed competitively and wrestling is just as "one dimensional" as boxing. So why can guys like Kos get away with the transition from another 1 dimensional sport but boxers can't? Kos expanded greatly his game AFTER going into MMA. Also is kickboxing 2-dimensional? Thats pretty much all cro-cop is known for.

ALso I disagree about "there is more to be aware of." That is subjective. yes there are more disciplines to be aware of but boxing at the level we are talking about in this post is MUCH MORE than the striking you see in the UFC and other organizations. I would say there are comparable things to pay attention to. If anything, imagine going 12 rounds with someone that is throwing over 100 punches a round at you. There is a LOT to pay attention to. It would be equally ignorant if I said; "well MMA fighters basically can just take a breather on the ground or they just kinda stand around the ring and trade blows standing up." There is much more going on when fighters are on the ground or just circling each other around the ring.
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:23 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by daveh98 View Post
Hey thanks for the reply. I actually mean no disrespect to your post but that response is the very problem that prompted me to write my initial post. You quote: "I just have to say that MMA simply takes more athletic ability than boxing does because there's simply more to consider, if you want to be an upper echelon fighter that is. "

Would you agree Kos is upper echelon? He was a wrestler. I wrestled in high school and boxed competitively and wrestling is just as "one dimensional" as boxing. So why can guys like Kos get away with the transition from another 1 dimensional sport but boxers can't? Kos expanded greatly his game AFTER going into MMA. Also is kickboxing 2-dimensional? Thats pretty much all cro-cop is known for.
Sorry, you just missed my post edit before you quoted me lol. I took the echelon thing out, because that thought didn't come out the way I wanted it to. It doesn't help that I'm writing this without my contact lenses in haha.

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Originally Posted by daveh98 View Post
ALso I disagree about "there is more to be aware of." That is subjective. yes there are more disciplines to be aware of but boxing at the level we are talking about in this post is MUCH MORE than the striking you see in the UFC and other organizations. I would say there are comparable things to pay attention to. If anything, imagine going 12 rounds with someone that is throwing over 100 punches a round at you. There is a LOT to pay attention to. It would be equally ignorant if I said; "well MMA fighters basically can just take a breather on the ground or they just kinda stand around the ring and trade blows standing up." There is much more going on when fighters are on the ground or just circling each other around the ring.
I think you misunderstood what I said, slightly. My point was that boxing is a sport that's main concentration lies on striking, that is the ultimate purpose of the fights. Footwork, shoulder-rolls, etc are all techniques of the "sweet science" that go un-noticed by most people, but the same can be easily said for mixed martial arts.

I don't understand how you can say it's 'subjective' that there's more to consider in mixed martial arts? Instead of aspects of striking in boxing, mixed martial artists MUST (today at least) know all aspects of grappling (offensive and defensive), wrestling and striking, not to forget their conditioning as well.

Boxing is simply more concentrated on one aspect of MMA, so obviously that level would be higher. That's like saying a professional cyclist like Lance Armstrong is better at riding bikes than a professional decathlete. The decathlete needs to disperse their skillset, whereas the cyclist's skills are concentrated on the main focus of their sport; riding a bike. Of course the cyclist will be better.


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Old 01-05-2008, 11:58 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fedor>all View Post
Sorry, you just missed my post edit before you quoted me lol. I took the echelon thing out, because that thought didn't come out the way I wanted it to. It doesn't help that I'm writing this without my contact lenses in haha.



I think you misunderstood what I said, slightly. My point was that boxing is a sport that's main concentration lies on striking, that is the ultimate purpose of the fights. Footwork, shoulder-rolls, etc are all techniques of the "sweet science" that go un-noticed by most people, but the same can be easily said for mixed martial arts.

I don't understand how you can say it's 'subjective' that there's more to consider in mixed martial arts? Instead of aspects of striking in boxing, mixed martial artists MUST (today at least) know all aspects of grappling (offensive and defensive), wrestling and striking, not to forget their conditioning as well.

Boxing is simply more concentrated on one aspect of MMA, so obviously that level would be higher. That's like saying a professional cyclist like Lance Armstrong is better at riding bikes than a professional decathlete. The decathlete needs to disperse their skillset, whereas the cyclist's skills are concentrated on the main focus of their sport; riding a bike. Of course the cyclist will be better.

I think I understand your position better now. I think both sports have a lot to consider and pay attention to just for different reasons: boxing for its specificity and for MMA its diversity of disciplines. However, I don't think you need to be (at this stage of the game) versed in all areas. Again GSP is a shining example of the future of MMA IMO. However you have had guys hold onto championships for a long time with just striking ability and takedown defense. Again, that goes back to my original post about MMA skill set still evolving. If you look at the boxers from 80 years ago to where they are at today; the skill sets are much more advanced. Same with the boxers of 80 years ago compared to ones 200 years ago. MMA is just so new. Right now if you learn the basics of most disciplines that are utilized in the MMA, and then concentrate on ONE area; you can do "well." Liddell is a good example of someone versed in aspects of most disciplines but relies on outstanding takedown defense and great and heavy counter-punching. So I believe that a good striker (boxer/kickboxer) that comes into MMA knowing that they have to learn takedown defense (amongst other things) would transition extremely well. In my opinion MMA has become MORE striking oriented as opposed to it's inception. I remember vividly watching UFC 1 and 2 and thinking "royce gracie's style is the ultimate." What happened was that (and i could be wrong on this) people learned submission defense and takedown defense and focused on setting up good counter-striking.

Anywyas, these are merely just my opinions. However I have had a good time debating this with some well-educated forum members! I will admit that most of my MMA awareness just comes from watching most of the big UFC events and the Ultimate FIghter. I haven't quite gotten into the IFL but have begun to follow it a bit. peace.
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:21 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I think I understand your position better now. I think both sports have a lot to consider and pay attention to just for different reasons: boxing for its specificity and for MMA its diversity of disciplines. However, I don't think you need to be (at this stage of the game) versed in all areas. Again GSP is a shining example of the future of MMA IMO. However you have had guys hold onto championships for a long time with just striking ability and takedown defense. Again, that goes back to my original post about MMA skill set still evolving. If you look at the boxers from 80 years ago to where they are at today; the skill sets are much more advanced. Same with the boxers of 80 years ago compared to ones 200 years ago. MMA is just so new. Right now if you learn the basics of most disciplines that are utilized in the MMA, and then concentrate on ONE area; you can do "well." Liddell is a good example of someone versed in aspects of most disciplines but relies on outstanding takedown defense and great and heavy counter-punching.

So I believe that a good striker (boxer/kickboxer) that comes into MMA knowing that they have to learn takedown defense (amongst other things) would transition extremely well. In my opinion MMA has become MORE striking oriented as opposed to it's inception. I remember vividly watching UFC 1 and 2 and thinking "royce gracie's style is the ultimate." What happened was that (and i could be wrong on this) people learned submission defense and takedown defense and focused on setting up good counter-striking.

Anywyas, these are merely just my opinions. However I have had a good time debating this with some well-educated forum members! I will admit that most of my MMA awareness just comes from watching most of the big UFC events and the Ultimate FIghter. I haven't quite gotten into the IFL but have begun to follow it a bit. peace.
I think I can agree with what you're saying now more. The only thing is I don't think its simply a matter of "learning" takedown defense and wrestling.

The majority of mixed martial artists out there have a base in amateur wrestling which wasn't developed once they started training for MMA. You can't just learn to be a great wrestler in a short amount of time, unless you have an absolute natural talent for it, like GSP. Boxers would definitely be able to make a transition with their striking, but I think learning the ground game and wrestling is a lot easier said than done.

Fighters simply just can't be good at one thing anymore, and this is why the Chuck Liddells and Mirko Cro Cops are starting to get their asses handed to them. They've simply been broken down for their strengths and weaknesses. Even they acknowledge these faults in their styles, especially Cro Cop, whom has enlisted in some of the best BJJ practitioners in the world.

My point is, not in discordance with yours, that while fighters have been successful based on just striking/good takedown defense, this is slowly changing. You're getting fighters now that have a preference for striking, but they've also got excellent wrestling and submissions skills, like Anderson Silva.

The lines of definitive strength are slowly fading, and fighters are generally becoming dangerous everywhere, with slight advantages in certain areas.

Good posts though, I enjoyed reading your opinion.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:51 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Would you agree Kos is upper echelon? He was a wrestler. I wrestled in high school and boxed competitively and wrestling is just as "one dimensional" as boxing. So why can guys like Kos get away with the transition from another 1 dimensional sport but boxers can't?
Pure wrestlers are one-dimensional, but unlike strikers they have a better chance to get away with it because the one-dimension they are versed in has the ability to control where the fight takes place. That is why wrestling is one of the best bases for MMA and striking of any form is not as effective for making the transition. A wrestler can take the striker out of their game, and were successful in doing it until strikers started to learn TDD and ground game (Mo Smith).

I also agree with you that the skill set isn't fully developed, and almost all fighters even today aren't proficient in all aspects of MMA, but just enough to be successful (Matt Hughes is a good example). But Hughes could be successful even missing the striking element of the game because his wrestling was able to negate any striking advantage his opponent had over him. That is, until he ran into GSP (and BJ to a lesser extent), who we all seem to agree is the template for the complete mixed martial artist.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that guys who aren't complete fighters can still be successful in MMA, but certain disciplines are better at making the transition, and boxing is not one of them.

Also, in terms of the point you made about reflexes, top level boxers, mixed martial artists, football players, basketball players, etc etc, are all relatively equal in terms of athletic ability, and recognition plays as much if not more of a factor than athletic ability. As I'm sure you know, boxers are conditioned from the time they are young to recognize certain movements to know where an opponent is moving, what punch they're throwing, where they're throwing. This makes them very efficient at boxing, but when they transition to MMA, it is very difficult to develop the same recognition for things like kicks, knees and shots when they already have that really strong base of boxing instincts. Guys transitioning from a non-striking discipline (wrestling, bjj, judo) are blank slates as far as striking goes, and thus are able to (over time) develop those recognition skills, which allow them to be successful in MMA. Again, I'm not saying that boxers can't make the transition, but I just think it is more difficult given the fact that they need to almost relearn the striking game as well as learning the grappling aspects, where a guy with a grappling base can focus more on striking.

Also, I think in about 10-15 years we'll see this MMA boom result in a completely new crop of fighters who have been training MMA since they were kids, rather than transitioning from a single discipline to the entire game.
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