So much MISINFORMATION on this board regarding MMA and "BOXERS" - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
General MMA Discussion Discuss King Of The Cage, Ultimate Challenge UK, and HDNet Fights as well as general mixed martial arts discussion.

Reply

Old 01-05-2008, 05:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
Flyweight
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 240
daveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of light
So much MISINFORMATION on this board regarding MMA and "BOXERS"

Let me preface this post with two things. First, this is my second time posting this very lengthy message. The first one somehow timed out a few days ago and I haven't had the motivation to try again. Secondly, I am an AVID MMA fan and boxing fan. This is merely my humble take on some misinformation I see regarding boxing and MMA; specifically floyd mayweather debating a debut in MMA (it won't happen).

First I will start off with a question that will be referenced through this rambled post. If a "regular joe" Kenny Florian (collegiate soccer player) can be a dominant force in MMA; why couldn't one of ALL OF SPORTS most athetically gifted boxers? Let us not assume that a boxer wouldn't adjust his game for MMA.

One thing that I have not seen typed on ANY messsage board is that regarding "skill sets." Boxing has a pretty advanced and established skill set that has been fine tuned throughout its lengthy history. MMA is a new phenom. It's skill set is still being established. This has most recently been evident when viewing hughes absolute destruction of gracie. Or ken shamrocks destruction by ortiz. The reality is that "what exactly does it take to be dominant in the UFC" has NOT been established. People are still dabbling in many forms trying to find teh "best mix" of MMA to be dominant. GSP is probably what the future of MMA will look like.

It is my contention that a world class boxer is competing at a much higher level than an MMA fighter right now. I stress "right now." MMA is just too new. A guy like kenny florian would never have the athletic ability to make it in boxing. One reason is that boxing is very much reflex based. All the training in the world will NOT a good boxer make you. You need reflexes (the super human kind) to really stand out at high level professional levels. This is not just my opinion; it has been discussed by Randy Couture and Joe Rogan in regard to why UFC and MMA fighters can "usually" fight longer at a competitive level (strength vs reflex). If you recall the Ultimate fighter shows, there was an African American maybe 1 season ago that was 6'4 and 155. He was a beast..but NEVER fought. NO ONE in boxing could just show up on The Contender and have a shot with no experience. Why? The skill set is very defined.

Let's talk money.

Despite the popular belief that "boxing is boring" if you really watch boxing you would have seen that 2007 was one of boxing's most finest years. Cotto vs mosely Cotto vs Judah Pavik vs Taylor (amazing fight) Bika vs Jerridon(sp) etc. However I will admit that mega fights can be boring. Why? Because of money and all the crappy belts people hold onto (something UFC has done amazing with...1 belt). But as the UFC explodes, the fighters WILL get more money. What does that potentially mean? There will be MORE Tim Silvia's fighting. Yup..yawn. He wasn't fighting for the fans, he was fighting to keep his payday and belt. Imagine some of these fights where the fighters are currently getting 20-500k vs boxings 1-20 million. MMA will CONTINUE to grow...but with that comes more politics.

Money Continued...

If you are aspiring to be an amazing fighter; where will you go? Where the money is. Simply put, boxers are better athletes (im not saying better fighters). But the highest level of boxers are the better athletes at this point. Why? Again it goes back to the established skill sets and reflexes. It is extremely improbable to even make it up ANY ranking (WBC, WBO, even NABO) without having boxed almost your whole life. Boxers box..thats all they have done. They have been conditioned in the gym (for the most part). Again you see guys come to MMA from all different backgrounds because the skill set isn't defined yet. Koscheck made AMAZING gains just by working on standup. Forian is just a great pupil of the sport and has made a name for himself (despite just being a good athlete and a soccer player). Lesner is coming over to MMA.

I guess this post will sound like I am downplaying MMA; I am NOT. GSP is an example of just being a "world class" athlete that is going to probably help with the blueprint of things to come. Also, when the MMA world continues to blow up, you will see better and more difficult competition. I'm sorry you ken flo fans; but guys like him will soon be put to rest in this growing fight forum. Just like a ken shamrock or royce gracie would not do well by today's standards; guys like forrest griffen and ken flo (amongst many others) just won't be world class enough to compete.

Boxing is kinda like computer videogaming (its always dying when a new console comes out..but never does). I guess I am just trying to say that both will co-exist and if ANYONE could make a good transition to MMA or the UFC it would be a good world class boxer WILLING to adjust his game. Again, you can't just learn boxing (reflexes are innate and it takes years and years to be professionally ready). However you CAN learn ground defense and other basics of MMA. So if Ken Flo can do "well" is MMA....surely a world class boxer in Floyd Mayweather Jr COULD. THanks for reading. Btw I hate HATE hate floyd mayweather jr.

Edit: I am also not saying boxers are inherently better athletes. Guys like GSP and Kos already would prove that wrong. I am just saying that boxing attracts better athletes at this point due to its long-established history..and again...exact skill sets involved.

Last edited by daveh98 : 01-05-2008 at 05:10 PM.
daveh98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 

Old 01-05-2008, 06:25 PM   #2 (permalink)
Amatuer
Image Hosting by Picoodle.com
 
nickman9000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 170
Blog Entries: 2
nickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enoughnickman9000 will become famous soon enough
Kenflo couldn't do Boxing just like Mayweather can't do MMA. He would pretty much have to become a jui-jitzu stylist because everyone would always be looking to take him down. A Boxer's game on the feet will not work, the backstepping, the shoulder rolls, he'd get taken down so easily. The striking exchanges in MMA are so much more significant than those in boxing, in boxing you've got 12 rounds of nothing but hands, thats a sh!tload of time to work with. If Floyd was in an MMA fight and somehow managed to get to his feet would only have a few moments to "get the job done" before he gets taken down again. He went from having 12 rounds of "work" to a fight for his life. A good exaple of this is on a recent Strikeforce show, a golden boy ISKA kickboxing champ stepped into the cage, and was actually trying to fight it like a kickboxing match, doing fades, point kicks, point punches, and he got taken down and kept their, his only hope to stall it out and pray the ref stands them up. No submission skills, no ability to stand back up. The same will happen to Mayweather. Unless he goes and gets his blackbelt from Rickson and trains wrestling with GSP. He'll be ready for MMA in about 10 years. See you then Floyd.
__________________
GO WAND!
nickman9000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 06:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
Flyweight
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 240
daveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of light
Nickman I guess that wasn't really my point in my post. To respond to your response I will venture to say...if Kenflo can do MMA; so can mayweather. A world class athlete like mayweather can be likened to (but on a much greater level) to Kos. What was kos 43-0 as a collegiate wrestler? Does he fight in the UFC like he did on the show? Did he fight on the show like he wrestled in college? The answer is no. He adapted. A world class fighter (wrestling, karate, boxing, whatever) will have a higher probability to making the transition than a guy like kenflo who was a soccer player. Mayweather would not be a good candidate for the switch due to his style, however heavy punchers, cotto, cintron, pavlik even klitscho, if they wanted could make the transition. Unfortunatey it doesn't make financial sense. But dont think IF (which he wont) mayweather would try MMA he wouldn't switch up his game and do his homework. If you have seen his training and his dedication, it is amazing to say the least. He has some of the most intense training I have ever seen. It isn't THAT hard to learn take down defense. Thats the thing about MMA in its current state: It's doable for a large percentage of people because it is still in its infancy; its skill set still being determined.
daveh98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 07:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
Das ‹bermensch
 
wukkadb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 7,633
wukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatnesswukkadb Is Destined For Greatness
Quote:
Simply put, boxers are better athletes (im not saying better fighters).
I disagree about boxers being better athletes. Anyone can learn to box, and be very successful, but obviously the TOP guys will all be very athletic. Look at the UFC champs for example: Sean Sherk, Georges St Pierre, Anderson Silva, Rampage Jackson, Randy Couture. You think boxers are more athletic than those people?
__________________



What a stud

Quote:
Originally Posted by swpthleg View Post
The power of Aleks, his small baby and pimp hardcore dogs has granted you useful insight, my friend.
wukkadb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 09:19 PM   #5 (permalink)
Flyweight
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 240
daveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of light
Quote:
Originally Posted by wukkadb View Post
I disagree about boxers being better athletes. Anyone can learn to box, and be very successful, but obviously the TOP guys will all be very athletic. Look at the UFC champs for example: Sean Sherk, Georges St Pierre, Anderson Silva, Rampage Jackson, Randy Couture. You think boxers are more athletic than those people?
I did edit at the end of my post regarding that after I wrote it. I do think that the highest level of boxing will attract a higher level of athlete (at this point) simply due to the financial payoffs. Obviously that is just purely my opinion. I think GSP does break the trend. Same with Kos. Sherk does have good workouts but he is so chemically enhanced its sick. "training supplements"..I don't get how they are trying to spin that when winstrol and deca was found in his toxicology report (from what I have heard). Again, this just goes back to my guess that in another 20 years, the level of competition in UFC and MMA is going to be on another level. If you look at the guys on Spike's show Ultimate Fighter; a lot of them are just "tough guys" with some MMA training IMO. Dana White had great points when he would go to the house after drunken fights and say: "you wonder why the sport has a negative rep." With more media coverage and higher purses being paid out; MMA will have much better athletes in the future. Again I think GSP is a glimpse. Look at what he did to Matt Hughes. Hughes is a great athlete. But half these guys are getting exhausted at the end of round 1 (not the guys you referenced). But a lot of them look pretty out of shape.
daveh98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 10:20 PM   #6 (permalink)
Lightweight
 
attention's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 1,955
Blog Entries: 3
attention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By Allattention Is Beloved By All
but its not about having zero percent body fat or a super high power index... technique plays a major roll in any sport.

Ali and Frazier by no means had great physiques, yet they are considered boxing greats.

Its actually harder to make money as a boxer as opposed to an mma figher. Primarily because of sheer numbers, there are many more boxers than there are mma fighters. Proportionally there are more boxing trainers compared to mma trainers.

Boxing is widely taught in academia throughout the world... mma is still very niche.

Given this circumstance, demand is growing fast for entry level fighters... where the talent pool is still just being seeded. As more investors see the profitability of mma events... without being saddled with all the bureaucracy of the boxing world hardliners, it will expand and grow.

Keep in mind MMA is still in its infancy, it is still evolving... while boxing has been around for ages... it too has evolved greatly since its inception.
attention is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 10:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
Forum OG
 
Robb2140's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 3,061
Robb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of KnowledgeRobb2140 Is True Champion Of Knowledge
I agree with some of the things the OP is saying. Top Level Boxers are world class athletes, they are the top 1% of people when it comes to athletic ability, GSP falls into that class as does Randy Moss and Kobe Bryant.

Kenflo isn't the best example because he was training in bjj almost as long as he was playing Soccer and I would also say that Kenflo is a phenominal athlete, playing Soccer at a collegiate level, earning a black belt in BJJ, learning Muy Thai and excelling in MMA IMO is the defanition of a great athlete. Is he "World Class"? No, but he's top 5%.

Rich Franklin is a better example, the guy was a School teacher who probably took some Karate classes as a kid, learned striking, grappling and subs in a short time and became MW champ. Evan Tanner is just a tough dude who watched some grappling instructional videos and took some kickboxing classes and made it to the UFC.

GSP is for sure the MMA fighter of tomorrow, in a few years you will have to be really good at all aspects of the sport as well as be in phenominal shape to be fighting at the top level in MMA. This will happen gradually as the pool of people who train increases and the sport becomes more lucritive.

That bieng said, If Floyd Mayweather, trained soley for MMA for the next 3-4 years could he be a force? I would say that he definetly could.

Good post, I understand where you are coming from
Robb2140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 10:39 PM   #8 (permalink)
Flyweight
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 240
daveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of light
Quote:
Originally Posted by attention View Post
but its not about having zero percent body fat or a super high power index... technique plays a major roll in any sport.

Ali and Frazier by no means had great physiques, yet they are considered boxing greats.

Its actually harder to make money as a boxer as opposed to an mma figher. Primarily because of sheer numbers, there are many more boxers than there are mma fighters. Proportionally there are more boxing trainers compared to mma trainers.

Boxing is widely taught in academia throughout the world... mma is still very niche.

Given this circumstance, demand is growing fast for entry level fighters... where the talent pool is still just being seeded. As more investors see the profitability of mma events... without being saddled with all the bureaucracy of the boxing world hardliners, it will expand and grow.

Keep in mind MMA is still in its infancy, it is still evolving... while boxing has been around for ages... it too has evolved greatly since its inception.
Great post. I hope mine really isn't misinterpreted other than what you wrote because that is what I am saying for the most part. You are absolutely right; its easier to make money in MMA right now. Therefore the talent pool will be different than boxing at an entry level. Also because its in its infancy, it is more difficult to guage "who really is that amazing" as the "skill set" i keep referring to is not quite set. Obviously when I was speaking of money I was speaking at the high level where there is just too much money in boxing at the moment. Again, this will probably change in the next ten years. But again, I completely agree with what you wrote.

With that though, that is a large reason why I believe that a top level boxer would compete well in MMA. He passed all the "tests." He climbed the ranks of a very difficult sport. It would be easier to train the essentials to avoid takedowns and basic submission defense in a matter of a couple of years. Look at how well GSP and Kos improved or kendall grove.
daveh98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 10:46 PM   #9 (permalink)
Flyweight
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 240
daveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of lightdaveh98 is a glorious beacon of light
Quote:
Originally Posted by robb2140 View Post
I agree with some of the things the OP is saying. Top Level Boxers are world class athletes, they are the top 1% of people when it comes to athletic ability, GSP falls into that class as does Randy Moss and Kobe Bryant.

Kenflo isn't the best example because he was training in bjj almost as long as he was playing Soccer and I would also say that Kenflo is a phenominal athlete, playing Soccer at a collegiate level, earning a black belt in BJJ, learning Muy Thai and excelling in MMA IMO is the defanition of a great athlete. Is he "World Class"? No, but he's top 5%.

Rich Franklin is a better example, the guy was a School teacher who probably took some Karate classes as a kid, learned striking, grappling and subs in a short time and became MW champ. Evan Tanner is just a tough dude who watched some grappling instructional videos and took some kickboxing classes and made it to the UFC.

GSP is for sure the MMA fighter of tomorrow, in a few years you will have to be really good at all aspects of the sport as well as be in phenominal shape to be fighting at the top level in MMA. This will happen gradually as the pool of people who train increases and the sport becomes more lucritive.

That bieng said, If Floyd Mayweather, trained soley for MMA for the next 3-4 years could he be a force? I would say that he definetly could.

Good post, I understand where you are coming from
Heh thanks for the feedback. I stand corrected about florian. A bjj is no joke and I seemed to not pay attention to that. I guess its my stereotype of him becuase he looks so....average. Then again the middleweight champion of the boxing world looks just as "average." How looks can be so deceiving. But ya, what you took from my post is pretty much all I was trying to say.
daveh98 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2008, 10:55 PM   #10 (permalink)
Chocolate City
Image Hosting by Picoodle.com
 
Wise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 3,505
Wise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of KnowledgeWise Is True Champion Of Knowledge
You also need to remember the money is spread around amongst more fighters on a general MMA card when compared to a boxing card. Also people do get kind of mesmerized by fighters like Floyd making so much money a fight where most boxers are generally outside of a ppv pulling in something close to low to mid level popular MMA fighters salary.

At the end of the day I love both. I grew up watching boxing and competing in the sport. To me the difference is seriously apple and oranges. I do think if a boxer really put the time in he could do some damage in MMA. A good case of this would be someone like Kermit Citron who has a wrestling backround. Most of the guys seem to just act like they could step in the cage and compete though, where Ive never really seen an MMA fighter say they could jump in and compete with boxers right off the bat.

Im kind of tired of guys like Lampley though bashing MMA every chance he gets. Its interesting how they say its to brutal and then hold up fights like Gatti/Ward as their best fights which really wernt much about technique and more about beating the shit out of eachother.
__________________
Wise is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

VerticalSports
Baseball Forum Golf Forum Boxing Forum Snowmobile Forum
Basketball Forum Soccer Forum MMA Forum PWC Forum
Football Forum Cricket Forum Wrestling Forum ATV Forum
Hockey Forum Volleyball Forum Paintball Forum Snowboarding Forum
Tennis Forum Rugby Forums Lacrosse Forum Skiing Forums
Copyright (C) Verticalscope Inc SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
Powered by vBulletin Copyright © 2000-2009 Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
vBCredits v1.4 Copyright ©2007, PixelFX Studios