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Tank 8 36.36%
Kimbo 14 63.64%
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:33 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Did I ever say Ferguson had fought top level fighters? Whether or not Liddell made a valid point, which he did, isn't relevant to whether or not Ferguson is going around claiming to be better than every other fighter.

As for main event status, last time I checked, that wasn't up to the fighter, unless you're suggesting that the only way for Ferguson to satisfy your humility requirement is to refuse main event status until internet fans and/or The Iceman declare him legitimate.

AMEN. WHAT I'VE BEEN THINKING THIS WHOLE TIME
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Old 05-01-2008, 06:47 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stitch1z View Post
Then why is he challenging Liddell to a fight on the internet.
I thought you said that he would have never "put the challenge out there if there was any chance of this match-up becoming a reality." Doesn't that just prove my point that Ferguson doesn't have the power to matchmake?

That being said Gary Shaw openly admits to protecting his contracted fighters. That does bother me, but to be fair to Ferguson, White said the UFC wasn't interested in him. EliteXC is the next highest level in terms of North American mma.

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One who intends to better and test themselves by fighting tough competition.
Seeking out Bas Rutten as a trainer and earning his endless praise suggests Ferguson has that intention. Besides, in mma terms, Mercer < Cantrell < Abbott <= Thompson.


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I'm arguing that he gets paid six figures a fight to do something that amateur level fighters can do. Isn't he supposed to be a professional?
The license determines whether or not a fighter is a professional, not his paycheck. And again, the discussion wasn't about whether or not Ferguson's market value was worth more than his in ring credibility. I have no plans to argue that point.

Quote:
Because you claimed that Kimbo agreed to fight 'meaningful' competition. It's right there in the same organization that he is. Yet, he's still fighting matches tailor-made for him.
The identity of the tailor is the flaw in your argument.

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“I like Brock, but it just shows that Dana doesn’t know what he’s doing. Every time he signs someone, they get beat right away. I guess if you want to get beat right away, you should go to the UFC. It’s like I said all along, Dana didn’t invent mixed martial arts, he doesn’t own the best fighters in the world and he doesn’t have the best fights in the world. He should come down and look at our show, although I’m sure he watches them free on Showtime. I feel badly because Brock could’ve been a star and he ruined him right off of the bat. It was a bad match-up.”
http://mmamania.com/2008/02/12/gary-...t-off-the-bat/
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:02 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
I thought you said that he would have never "put the challenge out there if there was any chance of this match-up becoming a reality." Doesn't that just prove my point that Ferguson doesn't have the power to matchmake?
It kind of proves the point I was trying to make earlier that Kimbo has as much to do with his false hype as anyone associated with him

Quote:
That being said Gary Shaw openly admits to protecting his contracted fighters. That does bother me, but to be fair to Ferguson, White said the UFC wasn't interested in him. EliteXC is the next highest level in terms of North American mma.
This does suck ass, but I don't believe that Ferg is powerless to do ANYTHING about it.

Quote:
Seeking out Bas Rutten as a trainer and earning his endless praise suggests Ferguson has that intention. Besides, in mma terms, Mercer < Cantrell < Abbott <= Thompson.
An Amateur fighter would be lucky to have that kind of competition to pad their carreer before they hit the big leagues. Going into all of these fights, it would be appaulling if Kimbo lost. His skillset is made to dismantle any of the above, hence it doesn't further his MMA expertise in the cage. He has a good trainer, but his competition is way weak. JT could have easily been a fair debut, considering Kimbo's "fighting background"

Quote:
The license determines whether or not a fighter is a professional, not his paycheck. And again, the discussion wasn't about whether or not Ferguson's market value was worth more than his in ring credibility. I have no plans to argue that point.
I thought the argument I was making is that Kimbo is not a legitimate MMA fighter. I say getting paid six figures for fighting less than average AMATEUR-level competition on a national market with that kind of payscale lacks legitimacy as a fighter and is closer to an entertainer (such as a circus act, or freak show)

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The identity of the tailor is the flaw in your argument.
Once again, I don't see Kimbo stepping forward demanding to fight the already present competition in the EXC HW division.

Here's another quote for you:
Quote:
"There's so many other athletes out there that have better skill," Rodriguez said. "There are other top contenders right now. Kimbo Slice to me is just a clown... He's a dancing monkey." - Ricco Rodriguez
http://mmajunkie.com/news/3599/ricco...imbo-slice.mma

I didn't see any videos of Kimbo calling Ricco out and they're in the same organization...
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:15 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stitch1z View Post
It kind of proves the point I was trying to make earlier that Kimbo has as much to do with his false hype as anyone associated with him
If Ferguson had initiated the 'feud' with Liddell, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Quote:
This does suck ass, but I don't believe that Ferg is powerless to do ANYTHING about it.
Right, but your beliefs aren't based in fact, they're based on your preconceived notions about Ferguson. It's hard to form a rational argument for or against beliefs.

Quote:
An Amateur fighter would be lucky to have that kind of competition to pad their carreer before they hit the big leagues. Going into all of these fights, it would be appaulling if Kimbo lost.
His skillset is made to dismantle any of the above, hence it doesn't further his MMA expertise in the cage. He has a good trainer, but his competition is way weak. JT could have easily been a fair debut, considering Kimbo's "fighting background"
How does this address what his intentions in the sport are?

Quote:
I thought the argument I was making is that Kimbo is not a legitimate MMA fighter. I say getting paid six figures for fighting less than average AMATEUR-level competition on a national market with that kind of payscale lacks legitimacy as a fighter and is closer to an entertainer (such as a circus act, or freak show)
So, if he was getting paid $10,000 a fight and facing the same competition, would that somehow increase his legitimacy as a fighter? It seems like you're saying legitimacy is a function of salary. Lesnar, Silva, Franklin, and others have shown that fighting skill and your marketability aren't directly proportionate. It makes no sense to single out Ferguson for something that's true in all arts (see Britney Spears/Paul Walker).

Quote:
Once again, I don't see Kimbo stepping forward demanding to fight the already present competition in the EXC HW division.
I've seen no accounts of him ducking that competition, either. Besides, if he did go around demanding matchups, wouldn't that just feed your claims about his arrogance?

Quote:
Here's another quote for you:

http://mmajunkie.com/news/3599/ricco...imbo-slice.mma

I didn't see any videos of Kimbo calling Ricco out and they're in the same organization...
Are you arguing that the current version of Ricco Rodriguez is a step up in competition?

Who knows why Ferguson didn't respond to that? It could be that he was afraid he would lose; it could be that he didn't hear about it. And for all we know, it could be his next match up. If it's the first, though, it kind of disproves you and the other guy's claims that Ferguson runs around talking trash about how great he is.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
If Ferguson had initiated the 'feud' with Liddell, I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Right, but your beliefs aren't based in fact, they're based on your preconceived notions about Ferguson. It's hard to form a rational argument for or against beliefs.

How does this address what his intentions in the sport are?

So, if he was getting paid $10,000 a fight and facing the same competition, would that somehow increase his legitimacy as a fighter? It seems like you're saying legitimacy is a function of salary. Lesnar, Silva, Franklin, and others have shown that fighting skill and your marketability aren't directly proportionate. It makes no sense to single out Ferguson for something that's true in all arts (see Britney Spears/Paul Walker).

I've seen no accounts of him ducking that competition, either. Besides, if he did go around demanding matchups, wouldn't that just feed your claims about his arrogance?

Are you arguing that the current version of Ricco Rodriguez is a step up in competition?

Who knows why Ferguson didn't respond to that? It could be that he was afraid he would lose; it could be that he didn't hear about it. And for all we know, it could be his next match up. If it's the first, though, it kind of disproves you and the other guy's claims that Ferguson runs around talking trash about how great he is.
Dude, you are way off of what I am arguing. I'm saying he will talk trash if there is no way of him having to fight a legit fighter (i.e. Liddell). He definitely heard about the Ricco debacle, because the statements were made before the Tank/Kimbo fight about his distress that Kimbo was main eventing. It would be hard to argue that he never heard that.

And here it is, his very next bout and he is not taking on Rodriguez, but the guy that lost by KO on that very same card they all shared a couple months ago.

It makes my point, that if there is someone legit and available to actually fight Kimbo talking trash, Kimbo doesn't respond with a "warning" (Buentello has trash talked Kimbo too, by the way). And yes Ricco, in his weak ass diminished state would destroy Kimbo.

So here is my thoughts:

Kimbo is not a legit fighter, he is a legit entertainer, much like Britney Spears, much like a freak show. This is my opinion and nothing you have argued has pointed me in any other direction.
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Old 05-01-2008, 07:50 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stitch1z View Post
Dude, you are way off of what I am arguing. I'm saying he will talk trash if there is no way of him having to fight a legit fighter (i.e. Liddell). He definitely heard about the Ricco debacle, because the statements were made before the Tank/Kimbo fight about his distress that Kimbo was main eventing. It would be hard to argue that he never heard that.
I get it now. If someone starts something and he responds, he's an arrogant bastard. If someone starts something and he ignores them, he's a coward. Makes perfect sense.

Quote:
And here it is, his very next bout and he is not taking on Rodriguez, but the guy that lost by KO on that very same card they all shared a couple months ago.
And again, Ferguson isn't making the matches.
Besides, it's already been established that Shaw isn't going to match Ferguson up with anyone he thinks will beat him, yet.

Quote:
It makes my point, that if there is someone legit and available to actually fight Kimbo talking trash, Kimbo doesn't respond with a "warning" (Buentello has trash talked Kimbo too, by the way). And yes Ricco, in his weak ass diminished state would destroy Kimbo.
If you watch the Liddell video, you'll see that Ferguson says that he still 'has nothing but love' for other MMA fighters but that he's grown 'tired of the trash talk,' and says that that's why he's speaking out now. He also extends his invitation to every MMA fighter that has a problem, not just Liddell. In other words, he's been intentionally keeping his mouth shut about the trash talking coming from some other fighters, which explains why trash talking from 4 months earlier didn't get a response.

Quote:
Kimbo is not a legit fighter, he is a legit entertainer, much like Britney Spears, much like a freak show. This is my opinion and nothing you have argued has pointed me in any other direction.
Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out where opinion reaches beyond the available facts.
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:01 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
I get it now. If someone starts something and he responds, he's an arrogant bastard. If someone starts something and he ignores them, he's a coward. Makes perfect sense.

And again, Ferguson isn't making the matches.
Besides, it's already been established that Shaw isn't going to match Ferguson up with anyone he thinks will beat him, yet.

If you watch the Liddell video, you'll see that Ferguson says that he still 'has nothing but love' for other MMA fighters but that he's grown 'tired of the trash talk,' and that's why he's speaking out now. He also extends his invitation to every MMA fighter that has a problem, not just Liddell. In other words, he's been intentionally keeping his mouth shut about the trash talking coming from some other fighters, which explains why trash talking from 4 months earlier didn't get a response.

Not trying to change your mind, just pointing out where opinion reaches beyond the available facts.
Well if opinions had to do only with facts, they wouldn't be opinions, now would they? My opinions are based on my opinions.

I never said Kimbo was an arrogant bastard, I think that he's an entertainer. He's a sideshow. And everything you are arguing is only reinforcing that point IMO.

He'll call out the out-of-reach, top of the heap fighter from another org, but keeps his mouth shut when Buentello and Ricco talk trash. That's hard to make sense of from a professional fighter's perspective. If he wants to shut his critics up, there are plenty of people to fight in his org.

You've argued that he gets paid more by a measure of his marketability, not necessarilly his fighting talent... Sounds more like an entertainer than a legit fighter to me.

Chuck is marketable because of his talent, not solely because of his winning personality and ability to knock down cans.

Once again, Kimbo gets paid because he's a good entertainer, a freak show.
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Old 05-01-2008, 08:59 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by stitch1z View Post
Well if opinions had to do only with facts, they wouldn't be opinions, now would they? My opinions are based on my opinions.
Sounds about right, for you and your friend, that is.

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I never said Kimbo was an arrogant bastard, I think that he's an entertainer. He's a sideshow. And everything you are arguing is only reinforcing that point IMO.
Nonsense.

Quote:
He'll call out the out-of-reach, top of the heap fighter from another org, but keeps his mouth shut when Buentello and Ricco talk trash. That's hard to make sense of from a professional fighter's perspective. If he wants to shut his critics up, there are plenty of people to fight in his org.
And you've yet to show an example of him ducking any of them, and you've ignored the fact that the response to Liddell is the first example of Ferguson saying anything back to those that have questioned his legitimacy, the fact that Rodriguez's comments came 4 months earlier, and the fact that Ferguson says he's been holding his tongue up until Liddell's comments. You're ignoring evidence that conflicts with your opinion, which is why I feel the need to point out where your opinion and the facts diverge.

Quote:
You've argued that he gets paid more by a measure of his marketability, not necessarilly his fighting talent... Sounds more like an entertainer than a legit fighter to me.
No, I've argued that all MMA fighters get paid according to that measure, making it hypocritical to fault Ferguson alone for it.

Quote:
Chuck is marketable because of his talent, not solely because of his winning personality and ability to knock down cans.
His career certainly benefited from facing a string of grapplers, though, didn't it?

Besides, you're twisting what I actually said, which is that every fighter, not just Ferguson, is paid based on their marketability. Machida is another good example. He's undefeated and one of the most talented fighters in his division, but his style isn't always exciting (to the general audience), and he doesn't speak the language (at least not up until now) of the market he works in. His pay reflects that. Compare that to Tito Ortiz, who hasn't had a meaningful win since he's returned to the UFC. Does his pay reflect his current skill or his mouth?

Quote:
Once again, Kimbo gets paid because he's a good entertainer, a freak show.
He certainly gets paid out of scale due to his reputation and ability to entertain, but it's not fair to completely disregard the skill he's shown or the work ethic he's reputed to have, simply because you think he's overpaid and underchallenged. He's clearly a legitimate fighter, even according to your narrow, discussion specific definition.

To get back to why I joined this thread, Ferguson simply hasn't shown the arrogance some here have claimed he has. Anger over how he's been able to sidestep the process other fighters have had to go through or how he makes the sport look doesn't justify the nonsense people are coming up with in order to bring Ferguson down. Lesnar and the TUF group have both seen this type of behavior. They've survived it, and I imagine Ferguson will, too.
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Old 05-01-2008, 09:53 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Sounds about right, for you and your friend, that is.
Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof
Looks like me and my friend understand the definition of opinion.

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And you've yet to show an example of him ducking any of them, and you've ignored the fact that the response to Liddell is the first example of Ferguson saying anything back to those that have questioned his legitimacy, the fact that Rodriguez's comments came 4 months earlier, and the fact that Ferguson says he's been holding his tongue up until Liddell's comments. You're ignoring evidence that conflicts with your opinion, which is why I feel the need to point out where your opinion and the facts diverge.
Just because Ferg claims that he hasn't addressed the reachable opponents that have talked trash because he was holding his tongue or being "nice" doesn't make it a fact. It's actually kind of suspect that he has only had enough when the first big name that has no chance of fighting in EXC (which also excludes Tito), that he finally says something... And conveniently doesn't address any of the reachables in the process.

Quote:
No, I've argued that all MMA fighters get paid according to that measure, making it hypocritical to fault Ferguson alone for it.
Ferguson is alone for it. Who is more of an entertainer vs. a fighter in the proffession?? Or rather who is more successful at being an entertainer vs. a fighter? And who else in the sport is exploiting that aspect of it and facing crappier competition than Kimbo. Who in today's MMA can you compare Kimbo's carreer to???

Quote:
Besides, you're twisting what I actually said, which is that every fighter, not just Ferguson, is paid based on their marketability. Machida is another good example. He's undefeated and one of the most talented fighters in his division, but his style isn't always exciting (to the general audience), and he doesn't speak the language (at least not up until now) of the market he works in. His pay reflects that. Compare that to Tito Ortiz, who hasn't had a meaningful win since he's returned to the UFC. Does his pay reflect his current skill or his mouth?
I aggree with everything here. None of these examples are close to Kimbo's situation. Kimbo's never had a meaningful win. Period.

Quote:
He certainly gets paid out of scale due to his reputation and ability to entertain, but it's not fair to completely disregard the skill he's shown or the work ethic he's reputed to have, simply because you think he's overpaid and underchallenged. He's clearly a legitimate fighter, even according to your narrow, discussion specific definition.
Lol! He's shown no more skill than an amateur fighter.
And he may be reputed to have a great work ethic, but we won't know until he fights somebody worth their weight in the division. Until then, I haven't seen any of this great skill people speak of. Strong wins over EXTREMELY weak opponents.

Quote:
To get back to why I joined this thread, Ferguson simply hasn't shown the arrogance some here have claimed he has. Anger over how he's been able to sidestep the process other fighters have had to go through or how he makes the sport look doesn't justify the nonsense people are coming up with in order to bring Ferguson down. Lesnar and the TUF group have both seen this type of behavior. They've survived it, and I imagine Ferguson will, too.
Kimbo seemed arrogant in that Chuck video and before his fight with Tank to me.

Lesnar and the TUF group have already fought much tougher competition than Kimbo has. And they have legitimate backgrounds in fight SPORTS (for the most part). There's no comparison.
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Old 05-02-2008, 05:20 AM   #40 (permalink)
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I actually think Tank is severely underrated, mostly because he should have retired long ago, before his training regimen, or lack thereof, caught up with him.
But when you look at the first half of his career, he did accomplish quite a bit in his day...

• He smashed Paul Varelans, a UFC tournament finalist, in about 12 minutes less than the legendary Marco Ruas did.

• He went nearly 18 minutes with Oleg and gave us the first great fight in UFC. As far as cardio goes, he was actually in better condition than Oleg after the fight.

• He destroyed Steve Jennum, who you'll recall was a UFC tournament champion.

• He went the distance with Dan Severn, when Dan was the dominant fighter in UFC behind Royce Gracie.

• Knocked out Cabbage quicker than either Sylvia or Arlovski. That's saying something.

His striking and wrestling were fairly solid for his day. His crude GnP was pretty effective, as well.
Then, sure, guys came along who were better, and like a lot of guys, he fell behind.
Tank never had the conditioning or the work ethic to match his strength and punching power, but he wasn't the talentless hack he gets made out to be.

Last edited by vandalian : 05-03-2008 at 03:23 PM.
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