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View Poll Results: Who Wins?

Robbie Lawler 27 47.37%
Frank Shamrock 30 52.63%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-31-2008, 12:41 AM   #51 (permalink)
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lol that last part made me lol j.p
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Old 07-31-2008, 04:57 AM   #52 (permalink)
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[quote=J.P.;625626]
Quote:

Now, this conversation makes sense.



I don't own the website. But I can see how you confuse such.



Ask Cesar, he boasted the record. After Frank knocked him out, he changed his tune. Maybe Sherdog can tell you why.



You should write for Dr. Phil.

Look I know that we won't be able to convince eachother of any thing. So we can continue to debate or agree to disagree. Either or suits me.
I've decided that I'm 15-0 in mma competition. I have no facts to support it, and have no official professional fights. However I think I'll be 15-0. Would Frank beating me be impressive? I also like the way that you attack the way I say things, instead of attacking my points. Like saying you don't have a website, when you knew I was talking about the website you cited. It shows that you know you can't come up with any facts (who needs facts when you have opinions), so you just attack my writing. Good job.
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Old 07-31-2008, 12:37 PM   #53 (permalink)
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[quote][quote=rockybalboa25;625781]
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. View Post

I've decided that I'm 15-0 in mma competition. I have no facts to support it, and have no official professional fights. However I think I'll be 15-0. Would Frank beating me be impressive?
Well you may want to ask Cesar Gracie this question. He actually pulled the same stunt that you just mentioned.......Or maybe you've heard about it by now....

Quote:
also like the way that you attack the way I say things, instead of attacking my points. Like saying you don't have a website, when you knew I was talking about the website you cited.
I like the fact that you like it. I like you discrediting something and than calling it mine. Loosly using the term to add what small amount of substance you can muster into your hilarious temper-tantrums.

Quote:
It shows that you know you can't come up with any facts (who needs facts when you have opinions), so you just attack my writing. Good job.

On the contrary, I have facts and opinions. But I can see how you again can get confused.
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Old 07-31-2008, 11:59 PM   #54 (permalink)
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[quote=J.P.;626007][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockybalboa25 View Post

Well you may want to ask Cesar Gracie this question. He actually pulled the same stunt that you just mentioned.......Or maybe you've heard about it by now....



I like the fact that you like it. I like you discrediting something and than calling it mine. Loosly using the term to add what small amount of substance you can muster into your hilarious temper-tantrums.




On the contrary, I have facts and opinions. But I can see how you again can get confused.
I can see how I am confused as well. Since I haven't really seen any facts. Let me show you what some facts are:

FACT: Robbie Lawler is considered to be between 4-6 by sherdog, mma weekly, yahoo sports, and tapout magazine. Frank is unranked.

FACT: Over the past 9 years Frank has not beaten one fighter who has been ranked in the top 10 at any time in their career by anyone credible.

FACT: Frank's competition over the past 9 years have had a record of 31-30-2, not exactly impressive.

I didn't really appreciate the temper tantrum remark, but if you feel you need to berate me personally instead of using a logical argument, then by all means go ahead.
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Old 08-01-2008, 12:55 AM   #55 (permalink)
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[quote][quote=rockybalboa25;626606]
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. View Post
Quote:

I can see how I am confused as well. Since I haven't really seen any facts. Let me show you what some facts are:
Do tell........

Quote:
FACT: Robbie Lawler is considered to be between 4-6 by sherdog, mma weekly, yahoo sports, and tapout magazine. Frank is unranked.
I don't see how this fact applies to our argument since I've never disputed Lawlers stature in rankings.

But since we're on the subject of statistics, how many times has a fighter defeated somebody who was ranked above them?

Quote:
FACT: Over the past 9 years Frank has not beaten one fighter who has been ranked in the top 10 at any time in their career by anyone credible.
Over the past 9 years he was retired running his gym. He had a fight here and there to stay sharp but never contended seriously until he signed with Strikeforce last year. Nice try though.

Quote:
FACT: Frank's competition over the past 9 years have had a record of 31-30-2, not exactly impressive.
Is this really a fact or did you merley look up their records and post results?

Did you take their records at the time that they fought Frank?

Frank fought Elvis Sinosec on 12/10/2000
Elvis's record at fight time was 3-2

Frank fought Phil Baroni on 6/22/07
Baroni's record at fight time was 10-7

Frank fought Cung Le on 3/29/08
Cungs record at fight time was 5-0

Frank fought Bryon Pardoe on 3/27/03
Bryon's record at fight time was 5-2

Frank fought Renzo Gracie on 2/10/07
Renzo's record at fight time was 12-6

Frank fought Cesar Gracie on 3/10/06
Cesar claimed to have a 14-0 record at fight time (but to appease injured pride for his lies, we will give him 0-0)

That actually equals 35-17

The problem is you took 3 losses that Frank handed these guys and figured them into your 31-30 theory. We are taking records at the time of the fight. His "competition".

31-30 was not a fact. But,hey it was a good try.

Quote:
I didn't really appreciate the temper tantrum remark, but if you feel you need to berate me personally instead of using a logical argument, then by all means go ahead.
I call it like I see it.
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Old 08-01-2008, 07:30 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Frank's the man, but Gracie & Pardoe were not, I repeat were NOT good wins for the guy. Freakin' Pardoe was a member of Team Cannon for crying out loud. Dude sucked. He sucked, a lot.

Cesar Gracie was a teacher who had zero MMA fights. Him grappling with his friends and students does not equal fighting.

I liked the Sinosic win, though, since Elvis was actually a pretty decent fighter around that time period. Good fight, too, but Frank would say differently.
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Old 08-01-2008, 03:05 PM   #57 (permalink)
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[quote=J.P.;626636][quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockybalboa25 View Post

I call it like I see it.

The reason I used the fighters total record and not the record they had at the time, it shows what kind of fighter they really are. Early on in careers guys have easy fights, so it inflates their record. For instance four of Padoe's 5 wins came against guys with 3 fights or less. Maybe I wasn't clear that I was only counting fights Frank won. It doesn't really matter what level of fighters you lose to, if you lose you are obviously not up to their level. So if you use your math the record of the fighters he beat would be 18-11-2. It's a little more inflated, but still not very impressive. As far as Frank being out of the game starting a school, doesn't that kind of prove my point. He's a has been trying to get back his glory days. The bottom line is that Frank has looked descent against lower level competition. But when he gets in the cage with a top ten fighter (see that's why that's important) he will get dismantled. As far as Frank's school, the reason it hasn't produced any top level fighters is Franks style is antiquated. He has not adapted as the sport has changed, just like the Gracies and his brother Ken the sport has passed him by.

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Old 08-01-2008, 03:48 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
rockybalboa25
Quote:
The reason I used the fighters total record and not the record they had at the time, it shows what kind of fighter they really are. Early on in careers guys have easy fights, so it inflates their record.
I once heard that a bad case requires alot of words.

Your fact was less a fact and more a case.

Fact: Three of the losses you've listed were at the hands of Frank Shamrock.

Fact: Frank Shamrocks first fight was agains Bas Rutten.


Quote:
Maybe I wasn't clear that I was only counting fights Frank won.
No you were ademant in the fact that he's had bad "competition"

Quote:
It doesn't really matter what level of fighters you lose to, if you lose you are obviously not up to their level
Don't do this to yourself. You are very wrong here.

Quote:
So if you use your math the record of the fighters he beat would be 18-11-2.
No I've used my math. You are using yours again.

Quote:
As far as Frank being out of the game starting a school, doesn't that kind of prove my point.
Not one bit.

Quote:
He's a has been trying to get back his glory days.
Is this another one of your "facts"?

Quote:
when he gets in the cage with a top ten fighter (see that's why that's important) he will get dismantled.
He's better than you think, so we will have to see about that.

Quote:
As far as Frank's school, the reason it hasn't produced any top level fighters is Franks style is antiquated. He has not adapted as the sport has changed, just like the Gracies and his brother Ken the sport has passed him by.
No the sport has not. You just do not think he's good anymore so you're basing an opinion on that fact. And any other facts that you can successfully misconstrue.
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:44 AM   #59 (permalink)
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I voted for Lawler. I don't have Lawler ranked as high as most sites but I do think he should be the favorite for the fight. Frank can certainly take it, but I question the mental side of his game.
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Old 08-03-2008, 01:16 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.P. View Post
I once heard that a bad case requires alot of words.

Your fact was less a fact and more a case.

Fact: Three of the losses you've listed were at the hands of Frank Shamrock.

Fact: Frank Shamrocks first fight was agains Bas Rutten.




No you were ademant in the fact that he's had bad "competition"



Don't do this to yourself. You are very wrong here.



No I've used my math. You are using yours again.



Not one bit.



Is this another one of your "facts"?



He's better than you think, so we will have to see about that.



No the sport has not. You just do not think he's good anymore so you're basing an opinion on that fact. And any other facts that you can successfully misconstrue.
By any math the fighters Frank has beaten over the last nine years had a record of 18-11-2 before fighting Frank. That is indisputable. Does this impress you?

I still don't understand why a 3rd round tko loss to Le is impressive. Le is not at Lawler's level either, but even if he was does Frank standing with him make him a better fighter than Lawler?

Maybe in your next post, instead of picking at little things in my post you could actually put some evidence towards why you think Frank can win. So far you have tried to counter what I've said by using semantics, but you've never really said why you think Frank can win. Can Frank out wrestle Robbie? Can he stand with Robbie? Or are you counting on Frank submitting Robbie from his back? Any thoughts on why Frank will win, instead of attacking the way I write.
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