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Old 08-02-2008, 01:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Shamrock-Ortiz View Post
Yeah I actually saw this earlier and stopped reading after the bold part.

That's just ridiculous, if Fedor was 155lbs, he'd be even more athletic than he is, and he's damn athletic for a heavyweight, if BJ or GSP were 230lbs, they'd be much less athletic.

P4P is TO ME, all there abilities and skills.

Fedor to me is better than Anderson because his ground is obviously tons better, his striking is on par (You can disagree with me if you will) His wrestling/throws are tons better. Fedor P4P wise is better than Anderson to me, BJ is closer to Fedor, his boxing is incredible for a mixed martial artist, we all know how great BJ is at BJJ, he has great flexibility and TDD/wrestling. GSP has tremendous wrestling, great ground. Great striking, but below Anderson, Fedor and BJ in that department.

Personally P4P I have..

Fedor Emelianenko
BJ Penn
Georges St Pierre
Anderson Silva

For the exact reasons above.

I don't care who's fought who recently or how well they've done, in that order is what I believe the P4P best fighters in the world are.

Ranking wise, people do it alot different, people feel the need to put Anderson top for that, because of how well he's doing, not how good he is. IMO.

I am not underrating Silva here, he is the best in the MW division by a street. Just ability wise, he is below those other 3.
I like Fedor, but his ground is not better than Silva's. There is nothing you can site in a fight that shows that ASilva's Black belt level ground game is inferior to Fedor's.

Your opinion's not very insightful.
Look at Anderson's style, movement and technique. Also look at how he moves. Technically he's better than Fedor.

But that's ON PAPER. In practice, technique isn't as important as EXECUTION. And Fedor's execution has been, so far, UNstoppable.

So has ASilva though. THe last time he lost he wasn't at the level he is now.
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanKrato View Post
I like Fedor, but his ground is not better than Silva's. There is nothing you can site in a fight that shows that ASilva's Black belt level ground game is inferior to Fedor's.

Your opinion's not very insightful.
Look at Anderson's style, movement and technique. Also look at how he moves. Technically he's better than Fedor.

But that's ON PAPER. In practice, technique isn't as important as EXECUTION. And Fedor's execution has been, so far, UNstoppable.

So has ASilva though. THe last time he lost he wasn't at the level he is now.
Of course his ground is better than Silva's, there is no comparison here. Have you seen how Fedor move's on the ground?? It's insane! Anderson Silva is no where near as comfortable, I'd like to see what happened if Toquinho or Jacare put him on the floor and compare that to how well Fedor did against Nogueira x2, I remember one of the times, maybe the only time Fedor was on his back in that/those fights, he reversed it so simply, straight away.

And there is DEFINITELY something I can sight in a fight which shows Andersons ground game is inferior to Fedor's.. Travis Lutter mounted him and started slamming down punches onto Anderson, when do you see Fedor get mounted and start taking punches to the chin? If that was someone with good G+P, Anderson could of well got KO'd.

There is no chance Fedor's ground is worse than Anderson's, the way the guy reverses people and finishes them quickly when he gets into danger is incredible, It's like he's finished playing around now, so then he'll just submit them like that. Kev Randleman slams him on his head, reversal submission as quick as you like, Fujjita stuns him, clinch, recover batters him takes him down choke. Hunt nearly Americana's Fedor, he looks like he doesn't care, reverses Mark and subs him as quick as you like.

When I say ground, I'm not just talking submissions, I'm talking ground control, G+P, sub defence and subs.

Fedor's easily better in all those categories in my opinion.
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Fedor fights I want to see..

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Old 08-02-2008, 01:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I don't see Anderson Silva on the list moseso than Fedor. Fedor is not a big heavyweight but can dominate people way bigger than him. Anderson Silva is a big middleweight. he is really good at cutting weight. He actually looked exactly the same fighting at 205. IMO he's a 205er that is good enough at cutting weight to fight at middleweight.

IMO Fedor=top 5 P4P anderson silva=yet to be seen if he moves up to 205 we'll find out.
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Old 08-02-2008, 01:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judoka View Post
How i have it is there all round MMA game without weight being an issue. Say they are all the same weight but with the same athleticism and skills which is how i think of P4P.

Mine is,
1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Anderson Silva
3. Georges St Pierre
4. BJ Penn

thats exactly how i think of it. i think if you're thinking objectively about who is "the best fighter" then you HAVE to look at it that way.

but while thinking of it that way, i totally dont see a way fedor would beat bj. bj vs fedor would be pure striking; i dont see any way fedor could take bj down. even if it somehow hit the mat, its impossible to submit bj, he's like mr. fantastic. on the feet, bj's never been knocked out. ive never even seen him rocked. his head IS a rock, a leathery, solid rock. i think when fedor tries to close the distance and get inside, bj would pop him with a nice uppercut and then get out of the way. IF fedor wins this fight, its by decision, after 3 rounds of back and forth ass whooping.
gsp vs fedor would be interesting. gsp would have to stay on the outside and try to work his wrestling. fedor would knock him out if he couldnt work his gameplan to a "t". realistically fedor could probably submit gsp from his back anyways, i give this one to fedor, 2nd round armbar.
anderson vs fedor would be mostly striking i think. anderson doesnt mind going to the ground with people he know's he's better than down there, but im not sure he'd have the same confidence against fedor. i also believe anderson has a great chin, and a solid head. his striking has proven to be absolutely devastating, and pin point accurate. i think fedor would stand and trade until anderson started getting the better of it, and then try to get in close and secure a take down. thats where it gets tricky. if fedor gets on top of anderson, i see him starting to do some damage before anderson attempts to scramble into a different position. in the transition i could see fedor securing a submission. its hard to say tho because anderson hasnt really been tested on the ground by anyone with a solid jj game. i see this fight going either way, either anderson wins via 2nd round tko, or fedor by 2nd round submission.

so my list for p4p would be:
1. bj
2. fedor or anderson (too close for me to call)
4. gsp


realistically tho, all these guys would have a chance at winning against each other at any given time. at least we will eventually get to see 1 matchup!
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by daitrong View Post
if you agree with Mir that fedor can't beat bj penn or GSP at their weight class, then you'll also have to agree that they can't beat fedor at 230-235. You seriously can't believe that bj with an additional 70 pounds of weight will fight at the same caliber he did at 155, likewise for GSP gaining 50lbs. 3 of 4 of Bj's loses were to fighters bigger than him and most of his wins are to ppl at 155. Whereas, most of Fedor's fights, his opponents had a significant weight and reach advantage...
That's exactly my point. If people think Fedor would lose to GSP/BJ Penn who are best physically suited to their weight-classes, then they have to admit that BJ/GSP would lose to Fedor in his respective weight-class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PanKrato View Post
I like Fedor, but his ground is not better than Silva's. There is nothing you can site in a fight that shows that ASilva's Black belt level ground game is inferior to Fedor's.

Your opinion's not very insightful.
Look at Anderson's style, movement and technique. Also look at how he moves. Technically he's better than Fedor.

But that's ON PAPER. In practice, technique isn't as important as EXECUTION. And Fedor's execution has been, so far, UNstoppable.

So has ASilva though. THe last time he lost he wasn't at the level he is now.
I'd argue that Nogueira's ground game is better than Anderson's, just look at what Fedor did to him.

What you're not grasping is the caliber of Fedor's sambo (striking/grappling) credentials. Fedor is like the Jacare or Roger Gracie of Sambo, he's even better than them if we look at his success rate in competition. I really don't need to get into the specifics here to point out that Fedor is more accomplished as a ground fighter than Silva, it's plain as day.

I won't deny that Silva's a technically more gifted striker, but please, who has Silva submitted that is anywhere near as good on the ground as Fedor?
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:06 PM   #16 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by daitrong View Post
that's the thing "all things" will not be proportionate. Bj Penn's body and is not made to fight heavyweight. What you're basically saying in an idea world, if Bj had the same body type as fedor he will beat fedor.. or if BJ somehow grew proportionally bigger then he will beat fedor. The fact of the matter is, a 5 foot 9, Bj penn with an addittional 70-80 lbs will perform no where near the same caliber as if he fought at 155. His athleticism, speed, agility, and Stamina is based on his current weight class, and that will change dramatically if he moves to HW.
I think of it as a little sci fi enlargin/shrinking gun were the fighters are zapped and meet somewhere in the middle where there weights are proportionate, BJ would still have his freakish flexibility and Cadio, Im not talking BJ bulking up some 70 pounds on his existing frame,
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Old 08-02-2008, 05:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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This is why I hate pound for pound in mma because most people just flat out don't understand the concept. Frank Mir is right in what he is saying, you can disagree with who he ranks where but his logic for his ranking is right.

What he is saying is that if BJ, GSP, and Fedor all were naturally the same weight (he just threw 155 out there) that BJ and GSP would beat Fedor because they're the superior fighters. He isn't saying that if BJ and GSP went up to HW that they could beat Fedor. Even the people who coined the term pound for pound knew that smaller fighters would rarely beat bigger fighters and this is why even though they knew that Sugar Ray Robinson could beat anyone at his weightclass he wouldn't be able to beat a top HW. But because he as a middleweight was still a better quality fighter than any fighter fighting at heavier or lighter weights than him, SRR was the pound for pound best fighter.

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Old 08-02-2008, 05:42 PM   #18 (permalink)
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You guys know Mir doesn't mean if Fedor cut to 155? It's if all fighters had a frame that naturally fit to 155, Fedor would not beat BJ penn or GSP, which I may agree with.

*Damn I didn't read the second page, MLS handled it.
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I never post, but I read the site every day and watch and read as much about MMA as I can. Mir is totally wrong on this, and I wouldn't doubt that he's somehow trying to antagonize a fight with Fedor. Plus he's trying to become a huge posterboy as well and you can't do that in the UFC if you admit that fighters in other orgs are better.

I've got Fedor as #1 P4P with A Silva extremely close second. Mir makes sense with saying that they should be viewed as if they were the same weight, but why 155, Fedor is a small HW often giving up lots of weight to his opponents. Let BJ or GSP or Silva fight guys 30 or so pounds heavier with height and reach advantages and see how they would do. Those guys fighting at HW would not be the same fighters, even if they possesed body types that were suited to fighting at that weight.

With that said, Nogueira wins via TKO(strikes).
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Old 08-02-2008, 10:49 PM   #20 (permalink)
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The way I see it

Anderson Silva is 22-4
BJ Penn is 14-4-1
Georges St-Pierre is 16-2

Fedor is 29-1-1, now when someone can beat Fedor and not by some techinallity of an illegal elbow with a cut stopage. Then we can have a conversation about P4P. Until then the man is the P4P champ.

Fedor seems to always be ready to fight and on an off day he still wins. These other guys have lost and that alone speaks for itself.
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