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Old 08-23-2008, 06:32 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm inclined to agree. At least he trains fighters to rely almost soley on submissions (takedowns are secondary) and clinching which they suceed with which is kind of awesome.

What GP are you gus talking about?
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:38 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:08 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Fedor>all, who do you think has the best MMA BJJ? Not trying to start any shit, just want to know.
I'm not Fedor>all, but I think I'll take a shot at this. I hate to be one of those guys that just picks the popular UFC fighter, but BJ Penn needs to be named here. Seriously, if this guy gets your back, you're f*cked. Remember in the second Hughes fight when he got a triangle from Hughes' back?! Seriously, who does that? BJ Penn does, that's who. Also, he has one of the best top games I've ever seen, ever. When he gets mount on someone, he can dish out some serious punishment. I know throwing strikes isn't BJJ, but he's using his BJJ to secure his position, and secure it well, and then he murders fools. I'll say Aoki probably has better subs from the guard in MMA, but that's because BJ never really ends up on his back, and even when he is there, he likes to duck punches and look to take the back instead of going for submissions.

Remember, BJJ is more than just submissions, where it can be argued that Aoki might be better. BJ's positioning on the ground, especially in the mount and back position, is godlike, and better than Aoki's in my opinion. And I'd also say his RNC (possibly the most practical submission for MMA) is better than Aoki's, which may be redundant since that kinda flows from him having batter back control, but I'm just throwing it out there.

So, yeah, BJ Penn FTW.
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Old 08-23-2008, 11:16 AM   #14 (permalink)
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IDK Damone I would say Melendez, the Diaz Brothers, Terrell and Shields would be a better group than Nakai's. But lets be honest both groups are amazing.

And I also wouldn't say Aoki has the best BJJ in MMA. I think Jacare. Werdum, and BJ are also better they just don't have to use it as much as Aoki because they aren't dependent on it.
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Old 08-23-2008, 11:39 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Don't forget BTT with Palhares and The Nog brothers (even though they don't train there now) and Arona and Filho, etc.

They are very good at th wrestling/BJJ combination, which makes them effective all around ground fighters as well as submission artists.
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Old 08-23-2008, 02:39 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Fedor>all, who do you think has the best MMA BJJ? Not trying to start any shit, just want to know.
I think Aoki's great on the ground in MMA, but I'd probably put BJ, Big Nog, and MAYBE Miguel Torres ahead of him.

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I'm not Fedor>all, but I think I'll take a shot at this. I hate to be one of those guys that just picks the popular UFC fighter, but BJ Penn needs to be named here. Seriously, if this guy gets your back, you're f*cked. Remember in the second Hughes fight when he got a triangle from Hughes' back?! Seriously, who does that? BJ Penn does, that's who. Also, he has one of the best top games I've ever seen, ever. When he gets mount on someone, he can dish out some serious punishment. I know throwing strikes isn't BJJ, but he's using his BJJ to secure his position, and secure it well, and then he murders fools. I'll say Aoki probably has better subs from the guard in MMA, but that's because BJ never really ends up on his back, and even when he is there, he likes to duck punches and look to take the back instead of going for submissions.

Remember, BJJ is more than just submissions, where it can be argued that Aoki might be better. BJ's positioning on the ground, especially in the mount and back position, is godlike, and better than Aoki's in my opinion. And I'd also say his RNC (possibly the most practical submission for MMA) is better than Aoki's, which may be redundant since that kinda flows from him having batter back control, but I'm just throwing it out there.

So, yeah, BJ Penn FTW.
Great post Wawa, I agree with that entirely.
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Old 08-23-2008, 03:36 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Penn's top game is excellent, but his guard is mostly a defensive type thing to get him back up to his feet. With Aoki, he's dangerous from all positions. Top, he's dangerous, in the guard, he's extremely dangerous.

Nog's awesome, but I feel Aoki's just more dangerous at this point. He's a lot more quicker, but that's due to him being a LW and not taking the damage Nog has taken throughout his career. I can see Nog being the best, but I just think Aoki's guard is way better.

Torres is amazing, but I have to see his top game. The guy is so good that he doesn't need to take anybody down. They do it to him, which is why he's always on the bottom.
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Old 08-23-2008, 04:00 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Penn's top game is excellent, but his guard is mostly a defensive type thing to get him back up to his feet. With Aoki, he's dangerous from all positions. Top, he's dangerous, in the guard, he's extremely dangerous.

Nog's awesome, but I feel Aoki's just more dangerous at this point. He's a lot more quicker, but that's due to him being a LW and not taking the damage Nog has taken throughout his career. I can see Nog being the best, but I just think Aoki's guard is way better.

Torres is amazing, but I have to see his top game. The guy is so good that he doesn't need to take anybody down. They do it to him, which is why he's always on the bottom.
I definitely agree that Aoki's dangerous from all positions, but I think he overwhelms most of his opponents on the ground because they're not particularly amazing there. Clay French and Hansen are probably his biggest sub wins, but Hansen's ground game has come a long, long way since their first fight.

When Aoki faces guys like Uno (who is hella hard to sub), JZ, and Kikuchi, his grappling doesn't look nearly as good. Aoki was almost subbed by Bu Kyung Jung who isn't really a sensational MMA-BJJ guy either.

Although the guys I listed may not be as versatile as Shinya, I think their BJJ is proven against tougher competition in MMA.

I'm still really impressed by Aoki though, he threw that triangle up so quickly on Uno.. still can't believe he fought out of that.
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Old 08-23-2008, 04:11 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Penn's top game is excellent, but his guard is mostly a defensive type thing to get him back up to his feet. With Aoki, he's dangerous from all positions. Top, he's dangerous, in the guard, he's extremely dangerous.
BJ Penn doesn't really like to go for subs from the guard, but like I said, he can definitely take your back from that position, which is really just as good, and may actually be better for MMA because that takes the slams and punches out of the equation.

Quote:
Nog's awesome, but I feel Aoki's just more dangerous at this point. He's a lot more quicker, but that's due to him being a LW and not taking the damage Nog has taken throughout his career. I can see Nog being the best, but I just think Aoki's guard is way better.
Nog has an amazing open guard while Aoki does strange rubber guard variations. Just different types of guard, difficult to say which is better.

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Torres is amazing, but I have to see his top game. The guy is so good that he doesn't need to take anybody down. They do it to him, which is why he's always on the bottom.
Yes.
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