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Old 10-06-2008, 03:08 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I don't necessarily have a problem with the standup up.

At first, I couldn't see the Kimura attempt and was yelling for the ref to stand them up. Then I saw he had it semi-locked in and took it back.

Then Roy let go of the Kimura. He wasn't throwing effective strikes after that and didn't attempt the sub again. Nor did he attempt to pass into mount or anything.

I guess you can question the ref standing them up when Roy had a dominant position (side control) but I don't think the necessarily makes it wrong. You have to do something from that position and once he gave up the kimura, I felt, while watching it, that it was time to stand them up.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:26 PM   #12 (permalink)
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i think the standup was questionable he was working but i think the outcome would have been the same
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:31 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisty69 View Post
I don't necessarily have a problem with the standup up.

At first, I couldn't see the Kimura attempt and was yelling for the ref to stand them up. Then I saw he had it semi-locked in and took it back.

Then Roy let go of the Kimura. He wasn't throwing effective strikes after that and didn't attempt the sub again. Nor did he attempt to pass into mount or anything.

I guess you can question the ref standing them up when Roy had a dominant position (side control) but I don't think the necessarily makes it wrong. You have to do something from that position and once he gave up the kimura, I felt, while watching it, that it was time to stand them up.
What he said.

Yes he was in a dominant position but if you aren't doing anything with that position you are leaving the option to stand it up in the hands of the ref.
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Old 10-06-2008, 04:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I don't agree with standups in general, so I don't think this was right obviously. It actually really pissed me off.

Refs should not have the authority to stand up fights due to lack of action. This is meant to be a legitimate sport, not World Combat League.
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Old 10-06-2008, 05:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davisty69 View Post
I don't necessarily have a problem with the standup up.

At first, I couldn't see the Kimura attempt and was yelling for the ref to stand them up. Then I saw he had it semi-locked in and took it back.

Then Roy let go of the Kimura. He wasn't throwing effective strikes after that and didn't attempt the sub again. Nor did he attempt to pass into mount or anything.

I guess you can question the ref standing them up when Roy had a dominant position (side control) but I don't think the necessarily makes it wrong. You have to do something from that position and once he gave up the kimura, I felt, while watching it, that it was time to stand them up.

I thought it was early. The ref stood them up literally as soon as Nelson let go of the arm. He was throwing knees to the body there, he threw three knees between 2:35 and 2:23, when it was stood up. It had been exactly three seconds since he threw his last knee when the standup occurred and it looked to me like he was trying to transition into a full mount at the time.

Looked early to me, but not SUPER early. It's not like they were stood up in the middle of guillotine. But Nelson was far from inactive.


However, I don't think it changed the outcome of the fight. I think Nelson would not have secured a sub on the ground, and Arlovski would have KO'ed him in round 2 anyway.
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Old 10-06-2008, 08:53 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Anyone have any insite on who the referees where. I know the fights were in Florida and I do not know how the "normall" referees are sanctioned.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Nelson did nothing on the ground other than attempt a kimura. Throwing a few flimsy knees to justify action does not cut it in my book. In the US side control ain't the dominant position it once was.

It was clear Nelson was planning on using his size to lay on Arlovski and hopefully squeek out a decision.
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Old 10-07-2008, 08:22 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hebaj View Post
Throwing a few flimsy knees to justify action does not cut it in my book.
They looked as solid as most other knees strikes from side mount that I've seen, and he was throwing them pretty quickly, one every three seconds or so. And his hands were busy holding Arlovski's arm for the Kimura attempt so punches weren't really an option. I think the standup had more to do with the crowd's boos.

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It was clear Nelson was planning on using his size to lay on Arlovski and hopefully squeek out a decision.
Yeah, I think that's true. But the second round would have gone the same either way I think.
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Old 10-07-2008, 09:57 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
They looked as solid as most other knees strikes from side mount that I've seen, and he was throwing them pretty quickly, one every three seconds or so. And his hands were busy holding Arlovski's arm for the Kimura attempt so punches weren't really an option. I think the standup had more to do with the crowd's boos.



Yeah, I think that's true. But the second round would have gone the same either way I think.
I think it brings about an interesting question, in that would the fight have been stood up if a Big Nog or Werdum was in the same top position, yet similar inactivity, that Nelson was in.

Does the referee take into account relative skill levels of fighters on top position but inactive with relevant strikers or submissions. Does he come in with a pre-judged idea that Nelson was just going to stall and lay on AA to take home a decision?

Either way I couldn't have seen Nelson submitting AA. It was only a matter of time before Arlovski knocked him out standing.
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Old 10-08-2008, 12:48 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TheNegation View Post
I don't agree with standups in general, so I don't think this was right obviously. It actually really pissed me off.

Refs should not have the authority to stand up fights due to lack of action. This is meant to be a legitimate sport, not World Combat League.
While I'm inclined to agree that standups are a negative, which tend to take away some of the legitimacy of a fight because it takes the fight away from the fighters and puts the fight into the hands of the referee. The problem is, because most MMA orgs now have time limited fights, followed by a judges decision, it just leaves the door open for the lame strategy of building up a few points while just holding a guy down for 15-25 minutes... while in reality had the fight been under no time restraints ending only in TKO/KO/Sub then the strategy of LnP would be almost useless (other than for wearing down a guy and replenishing your own strength). So having "standups" are almost required in a time based fight because you only have 15-25 minutes to determine "who would win if these guys fought till KO/sub?"

Ultimately the only way to really properly balance the strategy of position control, is to either have standups in time limited fights, or to simply have unlimited time/rounds fights decided only by KO or sub.

Having seen the fight, I thought it was a bit early to force a standup but at the same time you cannot let guys fight for judges decisions(intentionally), and since the ref is the only one who can make the determination on whether or not it appears a fighter is doing so, its just something that will always be a very "grey area" because of the opinion that is involved.
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