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Old 12-13-2008, 02:30 AM   #11 (permalink)
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G'day from australia everybody; i've just joined this forum (long time lurker) and hope to become a valuable contributor in time. For now though, Ironman, you wrote a great editorial, and as follows is my own extra take on the issue:

I thought i might point out that while i cannot name specific names, i am aware of many MMA fighters who came from the sport of boxing, often being highly respected before the switch. I cannot, however, think of any boxers that originated in MMA. Considering that professional athletes are always looking to challenge themself and thus improve, logic would deduce that MMA is the sport that is more challenging overall.

In fact, leading on from this, many MMA fighters originate from other, more specific sports, such as wrestling, BJJ, judo, karate, muay thai, sambo etc. These roots are not novice ones either; many of the fighters are national or world champions in their respective sports. (correct me if i'm wrong, but world champions of sambo, bjj and wrestling, to name a few, compete/competed in MMA.) Following on from my previous logic, this would deduce that after mastering their original sport, athletes wanting to improve themselves and their abilities move on to MMA. And since MMA consists of all these champions of other combat sports, saying that boxing is superior to MMA in every way is also implying that boxing is superior to nearly every other combat sport in existence.

Claiming that boxing is absolutely superior to MMA is ridiculous enough as it is, but as i just pointed out, the resulting secondary claim that boxing is the absolute most skilled and respected combat sport in the world - is a claim which simply highlights kathleen's place in the category of naive, ignorant fools who vomit their own opinions forth without ever considering the facts. I'm sure she is considered an embarrassment even to the boxers who's nuts she is so desperately hanging from.

Last edited by MooJuice : 12-13-2008 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:42 AM   #12 (permalink)
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LOL...she doesn't even know her boxing history let alone anything about mma.

Jack Johnson a great sportsman? Heck of a boxer but essentially a thug and a goon.

The only hater I have really come across is a guy I work with. He doesn't like boxing either. He just doesn't like watching fighting.

Fair enough. Some people just don't like fighting. Doesn't change what I think. More often I come across people who watch UFC that I never would have quessed.

If I hear someone make a completely inaccurate statement about mma I usually correct. Simply tell they are wrong.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:55 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MooJuice View Post
I thought i might point out that while i cannot name specific names, i am aware of many MMA fighters who came from the sport of boxing, often being highly respected before the switch. I cannot, however, think of any boxers that originated in MMA. Considering that professional athletes are always looking to challenge themself and thus improve, logic would deduce that MMA is the sport that is more challenging overall.
Interesting point. If you're looking for specific names, Jens Pulver is a good place to start. There are a dozen more, but he's the most prominent, and he basically had to change his entire striking style to be effective in MMA.

In fact, his boxing background is the reason why Duane Ludwig knocked him out.



Quote:
In fact, leading on from this, many MMA fighters originate from other, more specific sports, such as wrestling, BJJ, judo, karate, muay thai, sambo etc. These roots are not novice ones either; many of the fighters are national or world champions in their respective sports. (correct me if i'm wrong, but world champions of sambo, bjj and wrestling, to name a few, compete/competed in MMA.) Following on from my previous logic, this would deduce that after mastering their original sport, athletes wanting to improve themselves and their abilities move on to MMA. And since MMA consists of all these champions of other combat sports, saying that boxing is superior to MMA in every way is also implying that boxing is superior to nearly every other combat sport in existence.
Yeah, this is pretty basic. Nice of you to lay out the logic, though, and it's good to have people who think clearly.

Quote:
Claiming that boxing is absolutely superior to MMA is ridiculous enough as it is, but as i just pointed out, the resulting secondary claim that boxing is the absolute most skilled and respected combat sport in the world - is a claim which simply highlights kathleen's place in the category of naive, ignorant fools who vomit their own opinions forth without ever considering the facts. I'm sure she is considered an embarrassment even to the boxers who's nuts she is so desperately hanging from.
I concur.

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Originally Posted by zarny View Post
LOL...she doesn't even know her boxing history let alone anything about mma.
I'm glad someone else noticed. This was originally going to be the point of the piece, but I decided to change it up a little bit.

Quote:
Jack Johnson a great sportsman? Heck of a boxer but essentially a thug and a goon.
And a wifebeating douche. I mentioned it off handedly, deciding not to focus on it but rather on the Greek Pankration error.

You're absolutely right.


Quote:
The only hater I have really come across is a guy I work with. He doesn't like boxing either. He just doesn't like watching fighting.

Fair enough. Some people just don't like fighting. Doesn't change what I think. More often I come across people who watch UFC that I never would have quessed.
Yup, that's pretty much right. I would only add that anyone who doesn't watch the sport but claims to have an opinion is kidding themself.

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If I hear someone make a completely inaccurate statement about mma I usually correct. Simply tell they are wrong.
Yup, I'm with you on that one.
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:31 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Definitely your best piece Josh, I thoroughly enjoyed your dissection of her ill-informed and simply flabbergasting claims.

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But no more leg kicks for me. Not after watching Corey Hill.
No kidding. I'm really paranoid of that happening to me, even though I've seen it happen in a bunch of different fights..
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:22 AM   #15 (permalink)
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lol at the leg kicks..




But back to topic, Ironman, i think you need to have a look at what casual MMA fans see.

They dont see the beginning of MMA, they dont see the big legends, they see TODAY, what MMA fighters are.

And i have to tell you, being one that saw MMA tru the beginning of Pride(Then had to rewatch UFC 1 etc), MMA has become what is it today : A sport.

In the beginning, it was about seeing who had the best 'martial art'(sumo.. i dont think thats a martial art ). But it was quickly found that considering how BJJ was unknown in all other martial arts, compared to other martial arts(and mostly striking) being known, BJJ was so dominant, there was no question about how effective it was( and it was the point of UFC 1,to prove BJJ was the best).

So, it started with martial artist going into the ring. Then, after a few years, you would start seeing wrestlers turned strikers, grapplers turned strikers, etc. But again, it was all about knowing rather well one discipline, and completing their training and fighting style with other lacking abilities. And the famous Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie completly finished the myth that one discipline was enough to win. Sakuraba, doing it on purpose or not, completly neutralised Royce and forced him to slowly capitulate, making him look helpless for 90 minutes. It wasnt a quick KO, where one could argue he got lucky, it was domination for 90 minutes. Back to topic..

Today, we have schools with often the 3 most used discipline in MMA, not offering to be the best in wrestling, or in grappling, or in striking, they offer you be to BE an MMA fighter. This IS the new generation of fighters that comes with it.

I remember writing something about this, about 2 years ago on this forum. I said that the best fighters were very often one dimensional at first, then started being better at everything else. at the time, most agreed and said 'obviously!' , but today, things are not the same.

You have fighters that, instead of being incredible in one discipline and have a lack in other areas, they will be good at one discipline, and average in the others, making more 'average' fighters. And those fighters still make it, because today, with MMA being known and with everybody being at least decent in everything, you HAVE to know everything to be successful(and thats not a critic). The result is that anybody who would be, with time, incredible at something will have to concentrate a lot more on trying to improve their flaws, just to avoid losing because of them.

So, back to what i was saying, casual fans will see those 'average' fighters, mostly on TUF, where its often young guns would wants to

1) Make a name
2) get a contract
3) Get on the payroll to live off of MMA

To do all 3, or even just 1 of them, they need to win. And we all know those guys, 99% of the time, are not getting in the UFC after. In fact, often only 2 do, and we are not even sure how long they last, or how their career will go.

How can you,like in the article, 'capture the imagination' or not 'lack of athletic abilities' as an MMA fighter when you are on national TV and you are drinking pee out of a shooter glass, not once, but you also had to drink your buddie's pee as well, or gassing after 1-2 rounds of 5 mins. The last one can be arguable, because MMA is MUCH more demanding(and exciting) then boxing.

But the point is, today, new MMA fighters, when they start off, will not showcase incredible abilities in any areas, thus not impressing anybody that doesnt know MMA well(and even the ones that do know anything).

Perfect example : Chris Leben. I dont care how much some people like him, he is a bad example for MMA. He has no abilities whatsoever, but because he can take a shot, and never boring, he gets popular. And while he has gotten 'better', he still fights like a street fighter, he goes with antics like asking to be hit, but he cant answer with anything else than brawls.

When you see 2 guys circling in the ring and not throwing anything decent to connect, or just throwing huge flurries and hoping one lands, the perception is rather simple : they are street fighters.

When you see one guy over the other just trying to hit the other guy widly and you dont get it that there are actual ways to GnP and to defend GnP, you are thinking street fights as well.

When you see a guy screaming in pain and you dont understand that he just has to tap to stop it, you are thinking those guys are freaking brutal and the have no respect for one another.

But i think the most important aspect that repulses people from MMA, its the GnP, esp after a guy is knocked down. Very rarely you will see good clean GnP,its just all guns blazing until the man with white gloves stops it.

While it was worse at the beginning of MMA, it had a period of great showcase of what MMA was about, and today, there are still great fighters, actually a lot, but if often takes a few sloppy ones to ruin it, esp when they are showcased in popular media, like PPV or reality shows.

That person who wrote the article, plenty of mistakes from boxing, which shows she actually wanted to discredit MMA, not actually compare boxing to MMA.

However, boxing, i have to say, is viewed as more noble for the simple fact that boxing is a sport.

MMA is not. Its fighting, and nothing else. The way it is promoted right now as a sport, it always will have its haters, because MMA is not meant to be for everybody, MUCH less than boxing is. Already it has changed, and while mentality will change overtime, do not let the mainstream absorb and mold what MMA will be tomorrow.
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:58 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Split View Post
But back to topic, Ironman, i think you need to have a look at what casual MMA fans see.
Absolutely.

Quote:
They dont see the beginning of MMA, they dont see the big legends, they see TODAY, what MMA fighters are.
I wouldn't argue with that. I've said many times that an interest in the history of the sport is not a normal thing.

Quote:
And i have to tell you, being one that saw MMA tru the beginning of Pride(Then had to rewatch UFC 1 etc), MMA has become what is it today : A sport.
That's how a lot of eastern fans got into the sport, too, though many of them never watched the UFCs (who could blame them, since the Pride product was so much better at the time).

Quote:
In the beginning, it was about seeing who had the best 'martial art'(sumo.. i dont think thats a martial art ). But it was quickly found that considering how BJJ was unknown in all other martial arts, compared to other martial arts(and mostly striking) being known, BJJ was so dominant, there was no question about how effective it was( and it was the point of UFC 1,to prove BJJ was the best).
Absolutely. This is just a historical observation, and I don't think anyone would disagree with this.

If your points is that the casual MMA fan doesn't see this, then I totally agree.


Quote:
So, it started with martial artist going into the ring. Then, after a few years, you would start seeing wrestlers turned strikers, grapplers turned strikers, etc. But again, it was all about knowing rather well one discipline, and completing their training and fighting style with other lacking abilities. And the famous Sakuraba vs Royce Gracie completly finished the myth that one discipline was enough to win. Sakuraba, doing it on purpose or not, completly neutralised Royce and forced him to slowly capitulate, making him look helpless for 90 minutes. It wasnt a quick KO, where one could argue he got lucky, it was domination for 90 minutes. Back to topic..
That's actually not totally accurate, but everybody makes that mistake. If you really want to talk about what displayed that a single martial arts style was no longer useful, it was Ken Shamrock's draw with Gracie where Royce was no long able to do anything. It wasn't as exciting as the Sakuraba fight, and didn't really have a conclusion, but that was really the first display of the incompleteness of single system fighting.

Quote:
Today, we have schools with often the 3 most used discipline in MMA, not offering to be the best in wrestling, or in grappling, or in striking, they offer you be to BE an MMA fighter. This IS the new generation of fighters that comes with it.
Again, I can't see how anyone would disagree with this statement.

Quote:
I remember writing something about this, about 2 years ago on this forum. I said that the best fighters were very often one dimensional at first, then started being better at everything else. at the time, most agreed and said 'obviously!' , but today, things are not the same.
Actually, I don't agree with this, and we'll get to why that is in a second.

Quote:
You have fighters that, instead of being incredible in one discipline and have a lack in other areas, they will be good at one discipline, and average in the others, making more 'average' fighters. And those fighters still make it, because today, with MMA being known and with everybody being at least decent in everything, you HAVE to know everything to be successful(and thats not a critic). The result is that anybody who would be, with time, incredible at something will have to concentrate a lot more on trying to improve their flaws, just to avoid losing because of them.
This doesn't really say anything against your initial point, but the fighters that rule the roost in their divisions, for the most part, still come from one dimensional backgrounds, they have simply adapted and gained other skill sets.

B.J. was a phenomenal jiu-jitsu fighter, but before he even stepped in the cage he developed his striking. Nog started as a BJJ guy, and picked up a great striking game as he went along.

Fedor showed up as a grappler (which can be seen in his first Pride fight with Semmy Schilt), though he had some knockouts in his career in RINGS. He developed a precision striking game, as well as the version of the groundnpound (instead of the more technical guard pass -> submission gameplan evident in his early career) that no one had see before.

Anderson started as a muay thai fighter who didn't cultivate his jiu-jitsu fully until his career progressed.

The same is true for many, many guys, but I'm going to stop there, because those are the most clear cut examples.


Quote:
So, back to what i was saying, casual fans will see those 'average' fighters, mostly on TUF, where its often young guns would wants to

1) Make a name
2) get a contract
3) Get on the payroll to live off of MMA
Again, these "average" fighters are not usually well rounded (there were only one or two versatile fighters in the lightheavyweight division on TUF this year, and neither made the final).

While they were, initially at least, a well rounded bunch of athletes (this is the first couple of seasons I'm talking about) after the fourth season that changes, and I think most people saw it.

I agree, though, that those are the goals of most young fighters, I just disagree with the characterization of their skillsets.


Quote:
To do all 3, or even just 1 of them, they need to win. And we all know those guys, 99% of the time, are not getting in the UFC after. In fact, often only 2 do, and we are not even sure how long they last, or how their career will go.
Definitely agree with this. TUF is a lot like Russian roulette that way.

Quote:
How can you,like in the article, 'capture the imagination' or not 'lack of athletic abilities' as an MMA fighter when you are on national TV and you are drinking pee out of a shooter glass, not once, but you also had to drink your buddie's pee as well, or gassing after 1-2 rounds of 5 mins. The last one can be arguable, because MMA is MUCH more demanding(and exciting) then boxing.
I totally agree with this, and I'm glad other people know it.

In fairness to the guys on TUF the guys who won were not the guys who caused trouble, and that says something about the nature of the sport.


Quote:
But the point is, today, new MMA fighters, when they start off, will not showcase incredible abilities in any areas, thus not impressing anybody that doesnt know MMA well(and even the ones that do know anything).
This is, for the most part, true, but its important to recognize that there are a lot of guys who come out of the woodwork, guys like Marcelo and Roger and Xande, from grappling (as well as from other sports, that's just an easy example) and showcase incredible skills.

Quote:
Perfect example : Chris Leben. I dont care how much some people like him, he is a bad example for MMA. He has no abilities whatsoever, but because he can take a shot, and never boring, he gets popular. And while he has gotten 'better', he still fights like a street fighter, he goes with antics like asking to be hit, but he cant answer with anything else than brawls.
This is actually a really bad example, and since I've trained with Chris (and most of the guys at Quest, I can tell you that you're wrong without having to go watch tape.

Chris a GQ competitor, he's got good skills on the ground and he's got good standup. His standup may not look pretty, he may take damage, but that's conducive to his gameplan: get his opponent to open up so he can catch them.

Is Chris the best fighter in the world? No.

Is he kind of a dick sometimes? Yes, and that was especially true on TUF.

But the guy is, whether people understand the gameplan or not, consciously choosing to try and force his opponent into a brawl.


Quote:
When you see 2 guys circling in the ring and not throwing anything decent to connect, or just throwing huge flurries and hoping one lands, the perception is rather simple : they are street fighters.
I understand the perception. It doesn't make it true, but there are people that have it.

The opposite is true for boxing.

If I see two guys dancing around, rarely throwing punches that look to do any damage, then I figure they don't care about finishing.

Is that true? Not all the time, but occassionally, like the perception about streetfighters, it is.


Quote:
When you see one guy over the other just trying to hit the other guy widly and you dont get it that there are actual ways to GnP and to defend GnP, you are thinking street fights as well.s
Of course, a valid point. A lot of people don't understand the technical stuff.

Quote:
When you see a guy screaming in pain and you dont understand that he just has to tap to stop it, you are thinking those guys are freaking brutal and the have no respect for one another.
I agree that there are definitely people who have this view, but those people need to watch Joe Rogan's little exposition of the rules.

Quote:
But i think the most important aspect that repulses people from MMA, its the GnP, esp after a guy is knocked down. Very rarely you will see good clean GnP,its just all guns blazing until the man with white gloves stops it.
Yeah, that's fair enough. It's hard for people to get the concept that it is safer than boxing, because of the removal of the standing eight count, but I understand where you're coming from.

Quote:
While it was worse at the beginning of MMA, it had a period of great showcase of what MMA was about, and today, there are still great fighters, actually a lot, but if often takes a few sloppy ones to ruin it, esp when they are showcased in popular media, like PPV or reality shows.
Definitely agree. I wish the UFC would pick better talent and less drama for the show, but they have less say in that process than we think they do.

Quote:
That person who wrote the article, plenty of mistakes from boxing, which shows she actually wanted to discredit MMA, not actually compare boxing to MMA.

However, boxing, i have to say, is viewed as more noble for the simple fact that boxing is a sport.

MMA is not. Its fighting, and nothing else. The way it is promoted right now as a sport, it always will have its haters, because MMA is not meant to be for everybody, MUCH less than boxing is. Already it has changed, and while mentality will change overtime, do not let the mainstream absorb and mold what MMA will be tomorrow.
Again, I get frustrated with this notion that MMA was not a sport.

As soon as you have guys who dedicate their lives to something, who turn themselves into athletes in order to compete, where that is one of the cardinal virtues of the competition, it becomes a sport.

There aren't that many guys that walk around looking like Emmanuel Yarborough anymore. That's because these fighters are athletes, and because it has that athletic credibility and demands that discipline. In this respect, MMA is definitely a sport.

Now that rules and regulations have been established, now that there is a system in place and a sanctioning body, there's no reason why it shouldn't be called a sport, as long as boxing gets that distinction.

MMA demands more, and MMA fighters deliver more, athletically and technically. That is where, at least in my opinion, the qualification of sport comes from.
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:34 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what's worse — the arrogance of the boxing snobs, or the ignorance. I was listening to a couple of boxing guys jaw about Oscar vs. Manny on FSR the day before the fight, and one of them randomly says..

"This isn't two guys named 'Rampage' or 'Liddell.' This isn't a couple of guys who specialize in 'armbars.'"

...then his moron buddies laugh and "ohhhh" over his comments, like he scored some great blow for boxing. But the comment came out of nowhere. No one was even talking about MMA up to that point.

Anyway, he goes on to refer to Pacquiao as the "toughest man in the world," which made him sound even more moronic.

What I don'y understand in all of this is why these boxing types are so ridiculously insecure about their sport, that they feel the need to defend it from MMA all the time.

Imagine you're watching an NFL game, and some dumbass randomly starts ripping on the NHL, saying hockey players can't match the strength and athleticism of football players. It doesn't make much sense, but what these boxing-vs-mma boneheads do is almost as silly. What's worse, they're drawing more attention to UFC, and MMA in general, every single time they attack the sport. Meanwhile, they show their own ignorance complete lack of class.

Hey, I say let these pontificate and puff themselves up if it makes them feel important. They're only hurting themselves and their sport in the long run, but that's long been a theme in boxing.

The worst thing MMA fans can do is let their anger get the best of them. We don't need idiots writing responses about how they want to put Bona in a rear naked choke. That just makes us look even more like a bunch of thugs, which is what they want.

So I say don't play their game. Either respond in an intelligent, well-informed and rational way, as IronMan has here, or don't even acknowledge these fools.

And IronMan, great read. Another job well done.
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I don't know anyone who would disagree. Boxing is entirely one sided, everyone should respect the amount of training it takes to learn more than one style.
You know, boxers train an insane amount of time, too.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:48 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by vandalian View Post
I'm not sure what's worse — the arrogance of the boxing snobs, or the ignorance. I was listening to a couple of boxing guys jaw about Oscar vs. Manny on FSR the day before the fight, and one of them randomly says..

"This isn't two guys named 'Rampage' or 'Liddell.' This isn't a couple of guys who specialize in 'armbars.'"

...then his moron buddies laugh and "ohhhh" over his comments, like he scored some great blow for boxing. But the comment came out of nowhere. No one was even talking about MMA up to that point.

Anyway, he goes on to refer to Pacquiao as the "toughest man in the world," which made him sound even more moronic.

What I don'y understand in all of this is why these boxing types are so ridiculously insecure about their sport, that they feel the need to defend it from MMA all the time.
They have tiny balls (and chicken legs, but that's a point in and of itself).

I saw this too. I just wish I had been on TV at the time. I could've challenged Pacquiao to fight me in his MMA debut. Not a totally unreasonable request. (flying heelhook time!)


Quote:
So I say don't play their game. Either respond in an intelligent, well-informed and rational way, as IronMan has here, or don't even acknowledge these fools.

And IronMan, great read. Another job well done.
Glad you approve.

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Originally Posted by Damone View Post
You know, boxers train an insane amount of time, too.
Yeah, no one should disrespect the ability of professional boxers when it comes to how much they train and how much they accomplish.

Still, that doesn't qualify them to call themselves fighters, not with that singular dynamic.
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