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Old 08-27-2009, 11:05 PM   #11 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by Amun View Post
Nog's jits is a little more advanced than Mirs, but that's really not the point. Fedor would not submit Mir. It's very difficult to submit a good jits practicioner as their sub defence level is extremely good.
Tottally disagree, Nog may be more technically sound and a better practioner but Mir's jitz is more advanced than Nog's, what I mean by that is Nog is an ace at somewhat standard BJJ, there are now tricks in his toolbox just plain old practival jitsx. Mir trains with world champions in BJJ and has more tools in his box he just isnt as good at utilizing them.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Yeah, a super over-rated Frank Mir could definitely tap out someone who's won eleven world Sambo competitions, a judo competition, and has as many submission victories under his belt as Mir has anything victories.

Let's not get ridiculous here. Who has Frank Mir submitted who was a good ground fighter? I know the Sylvia triangle armbar looked impressive, but breaking the arm of a lanky guy with no jiu jitsu and notoriously bad ground game...?

In an all-grappling match, you guys don't see Fedor dominating Mir? Even a pre-accident Mir would be outclassed.

Now, Maia vs. Fedor in an all-grappling match would be amazing. I think Fedor would be in trouble... he's a lot stronger but so is Gonzaga and Maia got him twice. Not to say that GG is anywhere near Fedor's level tho.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:40 PM   #13 (permalink)

 
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I think if your looking for a guy to sub Mir you need to look to a real elite level submission grappler, your looking at Ricardo Arona, Fabricio Werdum, Jeff Monson, your looking at some of the best submission guys in the world and people who are more advanced than your run of the mill BJJ black belt.
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Old 08-27-2009, 11:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jcal View Post
Ive been reading alot of posts lately that say Fedor is a way better submission artist than Mir and hed submit Brock by armbar no problem, is he a that great of submission artist? cause I dont think so. I feel its his overall game thats the best, but the best submission in the world at HW, I just dont know, what are your thoughts.
Well, lets first talk about the possibility of submitting Brock Lesnar.

Firstly, Fedor submitted a guy who weighs 130 pounds more than him. Just attempting submissions on someone who weighs 20-40 pounds more is incredible (that, of course, is routine for Fedor), so the submission he got on Choi was unbelievable.

Secondly, Fedor's submission game is designed for fighters who come straight at him. While Mir (who, I should say, is a very good grappler, and absolutely no slouch off of his back) has a submission game that, while aggressive and very useful while he's taking a beating, really does make use of the traditional guard and posture control. Of course, Mir's two biggest wins, and many of his other submission victories in MMA, have been used in combination or in response to brutal combinations of strikes, but his game does center around traditional BJJ, while Fedor is a fighter who's game is built to be used in combination with strikes.

While I've heard Mir talking a lot of sh*t lately, I think it's worth saying that Fedor, while certainly not on the same plain as fellow Russian Alexander Karelin when it comes to dominance, is far and away the best sambo fighter in the world, and that is largely due to his freakish submission game.

Mir is nowhere near the top ten, or even top twenty, in jiu-jitsu. He's just not.

In terms of pure submission grappling, Fedor does make mistakes that no self-respecting BJJ brown or blackbelt would make. He didn't swing the leg over properly when he was falling back for an armbar against Mark Hunt. That was bad jiu-jitsu.

On the other hand, if you want his reversal of Randleman, which is classic judo, that is something that no jiu-jitsu fighter would attempt, much less pull off.

His grappling game is radically different (even if he ends up using the same submissions most of the time), and that's part of what makes him devastating.

If he took on Mir in no-gi grappling, I'm not entirely sure I'd take Fedor as a prohibitive favorite, but I'd certainly pick him to win, on the basis that he's dominated sambo for so long and Mir, lets face it, will never, ever, be a Mundial champion.

That said, I think that Fedor would get killed in pure grappling (gi or no-gi) by the world's top grapplers. I think Xande, Roger, Jacare and so on would have a challenge with the first two points, as his takedowns are very good and his judo is phenomenal, but the reality is, those guys are much better on the mat.

I can get into why that is, what Fedor's technical deficiencies are (though I've alluded to them already), but I think it's sufficient to say that someone like Mir, who's not in the upper echelon of pure grappling, wouldn't be able to exploit them.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:52 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcal View Post
Ive been reading alot of posts lately that say Fedor is a way better submission artist than Mir and hed submit Brock by armbar no problem, is he a that great of submission artist? cause I dont think so. I feel its his overall game thats the best, but the best submission in the world at HW, I just dont know, what are your thoughts.
Oh, Fedor doesn't have the BEST submission game in the world, but he's damn good, I think.

I think it's hard to say anyone other than Big Nog has the best submission game, though.


As for Mir, maybe people have caught on that I just really don't see that much in Mir, but I can't think exactly why everyone thinks he's a great submission artist when the only person of note I can see that he's submitted was Tim Sylvia - who has no real ground game at all.

I guess he did submit that one BJJ black belt champion, but other than him and Lesnar - who has these tiny legs that my sister could pull on and he'd tap - is Mir all that great of an MMA submission artist?


Maybe he's a world class BJJ guy - that I don't really know - and that's why people consider him, but couldn't you say MMA BJJ is different than BJJ proper as well?


Just saying.

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Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
I think if your looking for a guy to sub Mir you need to look to a real elite level submission grappler, your looking at Ricardo Arona, Fabricio Werdum, Jeff Monson, your looking at some of the best submission guys in the world and people who are more advanced than your run of the mill BJJ black belt.
Just a note, and not a criticism, isn't it kind of funny how technical we get when start throwing around phrases like "run of the mill BJJ black belt"? I mean, you have to be really looking deep to start calling a BJJ black belt run of the mill, as if just anyone off the street can get one.
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Old 08-28-2009, 12:57 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
I think if your looking for a guy to sub Mir you need to look to a real elite level submission grappler, your looking at Ricardo Arona, Fabricio Werdum, Jeff Monson, your looking at some of the best submission guys in the world and people who are more advanced than your run of the mill BJJ black belt.
Oh, just to clarify, I think all three of the guys you mentioned would definitely tap Mir in pure grappling.

So would the real top guys (not just top grapplers who also compete in MMA).

In pure grappling, Roger Gracie would eat Mir and Fedor for dinner, then have Brock for desert.
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Old 08-28-2009, 01:40 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Fedor submits ufc cans that have been canned, he is media illusion.
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Old 08-28-2009, 02:01 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by machidaisgod View Post
Fedor submits ufc cans that have been canned, he is media illusion.
Who has Machida beaten other than Rashad the tuffer and Thiago 'I get dropped everytime I get hit' Silva? Karate boy ain't shit.

^ See? I can twist reality into fantasy too.
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Old 08-28-2009, 08:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Old 08-28-2009, 09:46 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by machidaisgod View Post
Fedor submits ufc cans that have been canned, he is media illusion.
You realize arlovski left the UFC voluntarily, right? Up until his recent loss to Rogers, Dana wanted him back.

Timmay is still the most dominant HW champ behind Couture.

And then there's the who's-who list of top HW's he fought in Pride.
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