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Old 08-31-2009, 01:33 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Mir has never really submitted any good ground fighters in MMA. I think Fedor is definetly the better grappler and has the better submissions. I dont think he would submit him though unless he rocked him first. I think Mirs good enough to avoid being subd but I think he would get his face pounded into a TKO stoppage pretty quickly.
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Old 09-01-2009, 11:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I think that if they had a submission wrestling match, Mir would win. But in an actuall fight, Fedor is so much better. Fedor would either ko/tko Mir. He has better standup, and he could easily cancel out Mirs bjj.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Fedor much more of an accomplished submission artist. He was the Sambo HW champ for a while I believe, and has submitted higher caliber competition. In a MMA fight I don't think he would be as successful in submitting Mir then if it was a grappling match, he would just GnP the shit out of him. But who's the better submission artist? Fedor without a doubt.
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Old 09-02-2009, 06:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Fedor has subbed way more guys, and way better opponents. I don't think Mir has subbed anyone who has a good ground game at all. Roberto Traven was the best ground game he faced, but he wasn't really a good MMA fighter. Fedor subs Mir 8/10, but that's just my opinion.
I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.
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Old 09-02-2009, 07:37 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.
10 years of Top Sambo and judo opponents?
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Old 09-02-2009, 08:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs?
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10 years of Top Sambo and judo opponents?
= nobody thanks for clearing that up.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:44 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.
Wait... Why is Mir's BJJ so brilliant? Who has he really even submitted?

Tank Abbott? Come on now.
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Old 09-03-2009, 01:56 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I guess its my day to look like a Fador hater even though im no but who exactly did Fedor sub with a Jiu-Jitsu game as good as Mirs? IMO it would look ironically a lot like what brock did to mir.
It's not just about jiu-jitsu. I hate this mentality that BJJ is the only form of submission grappling. I think it's the best form of submission fighting, but it's not the only kind.

We're talking about a guy who has dominated two forms of martial arts competition that are heavily submission oriented for years.

It'd be like if we were talking about having Karelin come over to fight in judo. Sure, Karelin's never won a major title in judo before, but I'd still be on him. You know why? Cuz he's been throwing people around since he learned how to walk.

Fedor is the same way.

Still, we're talking about Frank Mir, who got beat pretty badly by Pe De Pano. I like Frank, but it's not as though he's even top twenty in the world in jiu-jitsu.

In a pure jiu-jitsu match, it might be competitive, but Fedor, with the gi (especially) would tool Mir. Without him, it might be fun, but I still see Fedor winning.

Does he pull out a submission? I don't know, that's a longer conversation.

I've never seen Fedor close to getting submitted, and I've never seen Mir escape submission attempts from guys who, realistically, have world class jiu-jitsu.

There are a few holes in Fedor's ground game. There are a lot of holes in Mir's ground game (and he really should avoid talking sh*t about Nogueira's jiu-jitsu in the future, because he's not a pure grappler at all).

Anyway, I'd like to see them fight in a gi grappling match, ideally BJJ. I think Fedor would kick Mir's ass, and probably throw him around a little bit, which would be fun to watch.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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It's not just about jiu-jitsu. I hate this mentality that BJJ is the only form of submission grappling. I think it's the best form of submission fighting, but it's not the only kind.

We're talking about a guy who has dominated two forms of martial arts competition that are heavily submission oriented for years.

It'd be like if we were talking about having Karelin come over to fight in judo. Sure, Karelin's never won a major title in judo before, but I'd still be on him. You know why? Cuz he's been throwing people around since he learned how to walk.

Fedor is the same way.

Still, we're talking about Frank Mir, who got beat pretty badly by Pe De Pano. I like Frank, but it's not as though he's even top twenty in the world in jiu-jitsu.

In a pure jiu-jitsu match, it might be competitive, but Fedor, with the gi (especially) would tool Mir. Without him, it might be fun, but I still see Fedor winning.

Does he pull out a submission? I don't know, that's a longer conversation.
I've never seen Fedor close to getting submitted, and I've never seen Mir escape submission attempts from guys who, realistically, have world class jiu-jitsu.

There are a few holes in Fedor's ground game. There are a lot of holes in Mir's ground game (and he really should avoid talking sh*t about Nogueira's jiu-jitsu in the future, because he's not a pure grappler at all).

Anyway, I'd like to see them fight in a gi grappling match, ideally BJJ. I think Fedor would kick Mir's ass, and probably throw him around a little bit, which would be fun to watch.
I dont think any of them automatically translate to MMA in the UFC, jiu-jitsu just translates a little better than Judo or Samba in the submission aspect of ground fighting. Without a gi you cut out a lot of effectiveness so it is just harder to transition into a MMA fight effectively.

Ive seen a guy that dominated one martial art and was a third degree black belt get his ass handed to him in a podunk bar outside of Kalispell Montana, by a cowboy with obviously no training at all.

My point here is not all combat sports translate to MMA well, just bits and peaces do. I dont feel Fedor has world class jiu-jitsu, he has good Jiu-jitsu but its not like he's tapping people with omoplata's.

If you want to nitpick and call it "submission game" that way no style is overly credited thats fine with me, anyway you slice it the question of the topic is "would" Fedor tap Mir not "could" he and I stand firm the odds are he pounds Mir out.
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Does he pull out a submission? I don't know, that's a longer conversation.
Well thats kind of the conversation we are having here.
We are not talking any "pure" jitz match or some judo competition we/I are/am talking in the cage in a MMA event.
After reading you're statement Im not sure you thought about the context of my original statement because we more parallel than cross.

You also fail to come up with a name of a better (submission) fighter than Mir that Fedor has submitted probably because he's not faced one and submitted them.
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Old 09-03-2009, 09:57 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I dont think any of them automatically translate to MMA in the UFC, jiu-jitsu just translates a little better than Judo or Samba in the submission aspect of ground fighting.
I think Fedor's history in MMA pretty clearly demonstrates how well his game translates.

His takedowns, which are a huge part of his game in judo and sambo, have been dominant against the non-wrestlers (a category Mir would fit into) that he's fought.

His submissions, which were heavily judo centric (ude garami/kimura; juji gatame/armbar) during his Pride career had a very high success rate.

He submitted more than half his opponents.

Of course, Mir is better on the mat than Randleman, Coleman or Ogawa.

That said, I don't think an MMA fight with Mir would ever hit the mat. I think Mir would end up staring at the lights, partly because his boxing hasn't been as devastating as Fedor's, and partly because I think it's been clearly demonstrated that a TKO is the best way to finish Mir.


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Ive seen a guy that dominated two martial arts and was a third degree black belt get his ass handed to him in a podunk bar outside of Kalispell Montana, by a cowboy with obviously no training at all.
Really? You saw a guy with three world championships in a full contact sport get beat up by a cowboy?

Or did you see a McDojo blackbelt with a big mouth who told you he was dominant get stomped?

C'mon. We're talking about two real fighters. Not a bar fight between a guy who pretends to have a background and a guy who ropes cattle six days a week.


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My point here is not all combat sports translate to MMA well just bits and peaces do. I dont feel Fedor has world class jiu-jitsu, he has good Jiu-jitsu but its not like he's tapping people with omoplata's.
You don't feel Fedor has world class jiu-jitsu?

Fine. Neither does Frank Mir.

After all, Mir has never won a Mundial title. He's never been on a podium at the world championships. That's the definition of a world class jiu-jitsu practioner.

I don't think Fedor's jitz is world class either. But he's never competed in jiu-jitsu and he's not a jiu-jitsu practitioner.

Not to mention there are a lot of sports jiu-jitsu guys that don't do well in MMA (see Marcelo Garcia).

16 of his wins are by submission. Frank Mir doesn't tap people with omoplatas. I don't see your point.

Are you saying that Fedor is using moves that aren't jiu-jitsu moves?

Because that wrong. And Fedor's not a jiu-jitsu guy.

Clearly you missed my bit about the differentiation between the submission game and Jiu-Jitsu.


Quote:
Well thats kind of the conversation we are having here.
If they fight MMA, Fedor will do exactly what Pe De Pano and Ian Freeman did to him. Punch him in the face until he's done. That fight isn't going to end with a submission, but not because Fedor can't submit Mir.
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