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Old 02-05-2007, 03:14 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Krav Maga, some BJJ and Muy Thai is good 2. Some basic elements of boxing like slipping punches, how to throw a proper punch etc. are good but in a street fight some of the techniques taught to boxers will get ur ass kicked. For an example ik a few kids in my school that think there all bad ass cuz they take boxing and try bobbing and weaving during a fight only to get a knee to the face which by the way is very painful. Try looking for self defense based martial arts classes that are based on self defense in real life situations but also incoporate some Martial Arts as well.
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Old 02-05-2007, 04:20 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Don
True.. and another thing no one seems to have mentioned is the individual doing the art from or style or whatever. What works for one person might not work for another . When I worked as a bouncer there was nothing in MMA that would have really helped me in some of the situations. AS a bouncer you were not allowed to throw a punch until one was thrown at you, though it was mazing how hard you could bring someone down with out throwing a puch, and most of what I used I learned from tradational martial arts. like Judo, Karate, Tang soo do, Ninjitsu Jujitsu and others. GRanted there were a few take downs I did that were just as home in an MMA ring as they are in tradational MA there was no ground and pound. It usually ended up in a controling joint lock or submission, again acceptable in MMA but learned in a tradational sense. SO yea SOme MMA is applicable in real life. But the tradational art fors have been around for decades and centuries for a simple reason. They still have applications in the real world. Plus MMA is taken from tradational MA its not a whole seperate thing. With out Tradational MA there would be NO MMA. MMA is just a sport application of what has been learned for hundreds of years in tradational styles.
I agree totally. Traditional martial arts are very effective in real-life situations. One of the drawbacks for certain styles is they take a long time to learn properly and require a tremendous amount of devotion and commitment.

One of our sensei's runs a security firm which provides security to a lot of events around the Toronto area. He has a number of guys from our club that work for him part-time and a few others employed fulltime. All of you guys who say Hapkido is a "*****" MA obviously have never run into him or his employees. He can move anyone around with ease and make you feel as much pain as necessary to do what he says. I have seen him move giant guys around like they are babies.

Joint locks are a very effective way to get people to modify their behaviour when they get out-of-line. In the real world, you can only use a reasonable amount of force to defend yourself and the ability to tailor your response to the situation is what makes traditional martial arts like Hapkido so useful.

I laugh when I hear how Hapkido is not useful in real fights - part of our training is how to control and "convince" recalcitrant individuals to comply to our demands. Of course, we do not use these techniques to bully people or show how cool we are - strictly self-defense and security applications. Anyone who tries that crap is quickly shown the door at our school.

I am also have rank in Chito-Ryu Karate as well and there is no comparison between Karate and our style of Hapkido. Out of all of the martial art styles I have seen and experienced, our blend of Hapkido and Kempo is the most practical and the most effective means of self-defense and controlling individuals. I must admit that I still like the Karate for the Katas and some of the other techniques. Of course, I am not really interested in professional MMA in the UFC or elsewhere other than the fact that I enjoy watching the fights and different techniques the fighters use so that is probably some of the reason for my views.

Please don't give me this crap about how ineffective they are or that all of the practitioners are "pussies" - you only showcase your own ignorance.

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Old 02-05-2007, 05:05 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Please don't give me this crap about how ineffective they are or that all of the practitioners are "pussies" - you only showcase your own ignorance.
I totally understand how you feel. People insult Karate all the time, saying it's useless in real-world situations. However, at my TKD/Karate place (I take Muay Thai and BJJ, too), they teach takedowns, grappling, what to do when you fall, various joint techniques, and much more than just stand-up, high kicks and punches. In fact, my instructor told the class that high kicks are a big no-no in a real work situation, so we've worked on effective low kicks in different areas (not the usual muay thai low kick to the thigh).

It's only the way these things are taught in the majority of the area, not the art itself.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:48 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Trainee
I totally understand how you feel. People insult Karate all the time, saying it's useless in real-world situations. However, at my TKD/Karate place (I take Muay Thai and BJJ, too), they teach takedowns, grappling, what to do when you fall, various joint techniques, and much more than just stand-up, high kicks and punches. In fact, my instructor told the class that high kicks are a big no-no in a real work situation, so we've worked on effective low kicks in different areas (not the usual muay thai low kick to the thigh).

It's only the way these things are taught in the majority of the area, not the art itself.
You said it yourself.. high kicks are a no-no in a real fight. There goes 90% of TKD then.
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Old 02-06-2007, 09:57 AM   #55 (permalink)
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All of you guys who say Hapkido is a "*****" MA obviously have never run into him or his employees. He can move anyone around with ease and make you feel as much pain as necessary to do what he says. I have seen him move giant guys around like they are babies.
Yeah, when those giant guys just stand around waiting for him to demonstrate. Or even if they're "half-resisting", they're still not fighting back like in real life... I'd like to see him pull that shit when a giant is swinging for his face and nuts without anything to hold him back and the giant isn't drunk or slow as shit.

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Old 02-06-2007, 10:04 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Krav Maga, some BJJ and Muy Thai is good 2. Some basic elements of boxing like slipping punches, how to throw a proper punch etc. are good but in a street fight some of the techniques taught to boxers will get ur ass kicked. For an example ik a few kids in my school that think there all bad ass cuz they take boxing and try bobbing and weaving during a fight only to get a knee to the face which by the way is very painful. Try looking for self defense based martial arts classes that are based on self defense in real life situations but also incoporate some Martial Arts as well.
No one who is not an idiot will try to bob and weave outside the boxing ring. Or block much for that matter.. unlike traditional Martial Artists, boxers and kickboxers can separate the sport aspects of the art from the practical aspects. For a lot of traditional martial arts, there IS no practical aspect so the separation is out of question.. flashy movie gimmicks, stupid jumping kicks, pitter-patter sparring kicks and punches, restricitive forms and katas crap.

Even one of the greatest modern practioners of martial arts, Bruce Lee saw the inherent flashiness and fluff present in a lot of traditional MAs... hence the creation of JKD where he cuts away the fluff and keeps the substance. AND he borrows heavily from western boxing and kickboxing (his own words).

Yes, there are some good practical traditional MA's .. Muay Thai, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo etc. There are some traditional MAs that are part fluff and part practical .. Judo, and some forms of Karate and Kung Fu come to mind. There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.. Kyokushin Karate and San Shou Kung Fu for example. There are truly scientific modern MAs that are devastating, like JKD and the Russian Systema. There are modern MAs that claim to be scientific and practical but are really a money-making way of convincing little kids and petite women that they can suddenly beat 6'8 300lbs giants armed with anything from knives to rocket launchers .. Krav Maga is one of those. AND THEN, there are the traditional martial arts that are ALL FLUFF ... TKD, Aikido, Hapkido, and most forms of Karate and Kung Fu.

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Old 02-06-2007, 10:21 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kishiro
you are a fool to think judo is in the same class as aikido, or hapkido.
i have done aikido (yoshinkai) and have sparred with my friend that does hapkido so i can say they are diffrent from judo in many ways.. what have you studied to make you say any of these styles are not up to par for a fight? in a fight i feel comforable using judo. i belive most guys on this list feel the same as me...

Judo MMA Database

i also believe dave camarillo, ufc coach from aka. would agree with me, as judo being a very good part of fighting...
I would agree partially.. of all the "-Do" forms, Judo is the by far the most practical. It still has a lot of stuff inapplicable in a real fight, but by and large it is adaptable to the real world and even the MMA ring. As for Aikido... if you feel comfortable using it in a fight, you're probably REAL comfortable. Like comfortably lying on the floor unconcious. Yes, I was unfortunate enough to take a couple of classes in it, and that was all I needed to see how ridiculous it was;

"I am going to come at you THIS way.. and you casually move out of the way and 'redirect' my force. Also, did I mention I'm 6 years old and retarded?.. because I never alter my blows to follow you, I attack off balance, and never use combinations."

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Old 02-06-2007, 11:51 AM   #58 (permalink)
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This is a thread that we've had before, but it's a good one. Anyway, this is how I see most of the styles you've mentioned on here.

TKD: Pretty much useless in street combat. It doesn't teach things that are really required for a great striker, like different head movement styles, effective blocking and more practical strikes (I mean spinning back kick, come on). I'm not say that TKD guys can't be good fighters, but the style doesn't really set you up to be really good at anything, and you're really f*cked once you end up on your back.

Karate: Teaches speed in striking and alot of things that are missed in styles like TKD, but it is still lacking, because it misses things that an MMA striker in this day and age thinks are pretty basic. (Knees, elbows and clinches) There is also no real preparation for the ground.

Muay Thai: Probably the best striking style around right now. Effective because it teaches the use of pretty much all of the bodies natural weapons (hands, feet, shins, knees and elbows), or at least all of the practical ones. With the addition of the clinch game it is a really solid standup style. Still, you don't really learn much about the ground game from studying pure Thai.

JKD: It's Bruce Lee. Generally, a very practical style and was developed for no holds barred. It's a great style, but I don't think that it is a good as Thai as far as an all-around striking style, but there is definitely alot to be learned from it.

BJJ: Great for the ground game, but alot of more traditional BJJ schools just do gi grappling and don't teach striking on the ground. More modern BJJ is basically constructed to be grappling for MMA, so it's really the most practical style for MMA style competitions. After all, MMA was started by the Gracies.

Sambo: A great grappling style with leg-locks, something that alot of BJJ practitioners don't pick up on. Some people would say that it's not really as practical as BJJ, but it add things that BJJ doesn't do completely and compliments BJJ really well because it adds the new dimension of leg locks.

Judo: A great grappling style. What is probably most notable about Judo is its takedowns, because they are on a higher level than any other MA style that I am aware of. It teaches submissions too, but there's nothing in the judo submission fighter's repetoire that you can't learn from a good BJJ fighter.

Wrestling: Good, but pretty one dimensional. You can't do much beyond groudnpound with just wrestling. Once you learn wrestling, however, you have a really good base for learning BJJ and other styles of submission fighting. The ground control and the strength that people build in wrestling is really key to building a good ground game.

Aikido: Alot of people think of Aikido as a spiritual practice, and it definitely is. However, there are parts of Aikido that can be really helpful in complimenting a good JJJ, BJJ or Sambo backround. Some of the spiralling and circular principals are really uselful, but there are also techniques in Aikido that can really help to land solid submissions. (add Sankyo to an omoplata or triangle armbar, etc.)

I'm not going to say that any style is the best for combat, because that depends almost entirely on the practitioner, but I hope this gives a good look at the discussion so far.
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Old 02-06-2007, 11:59 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Also, you won't see a Hapkido person do MMA for a couple reasons. 1.) Most traditional arts stress that the student isn't supposed to make money off of their training (with the exception of teaching) 2.) the person most likely to take Hapkido isn't the type of person that would want to get into MMA, if they wanted to they would do something else 3.) If you've seen anything other than UFC you'd realize that there are tons of traditional martial arts that are used in MMA. There are a lot of people who started (or still train) in Karate, TKD, Judo and others who do really well. Just look at K1 and you'll see traditional arts aren't bad. 4.) MMA has rules that restrict certain things whereas the self-defense arts have no rules. In real life, there are no rules. Sure you say that you can just "learn" or do the stuff in the heat of the moment when emotions kick in, but if you train heavily with the MMA rules you'll naturally revert to what you have trained in. That's what Krav Maga does. They teach a strike and repeat it until it is natural as a reflex, so when you need to fight you'll naturally know what to do.
You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.

And I keep hearing how traditional martial arts aren't in MMA because they're too deadly, or they don't want to "sell" their noble arts for money, or they're better for streets because they concentrate on stuff not allowed by the rules blah blah blah. The real reason you won't see most of them is they plain suck. Don't want to sell for money? Why do we see them competing in other, more rule based fighting tournaments (like K1) which are just as much about the money then? Too deadly and rule breaking? Why did they get mauled during the first 3 UFCs which allowed groin-kicks, hair pulls and just about anything under the sun then? They need to stop making these excuses and show hard proof. But they can't, because in the end they suck, so they'll create the false mysticism and bloated rumors about their deadliness. And gain followers in the form of people who've never been in a real fight, just watch movies, and don't know the difference.

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Old 02-06-2007, 06:43 PM   #60 (permalink)
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this thread was a really good read btw.

its my opinion that the combination of MT and BJJ would be the ultimate for someone wanting to learn self defence.
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