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Old 02-06-2007, 07:58 PM   #61 (permalink)
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As insightful, and also mundanely shallow and predictable as this thread has become, I think the majority of the posters on boths sides of the TMA/MMA for Self-Defense debate have lost sight of many things. What exactly is best for defending one's self?

Well, let's be honest. If one gets into a altercation outside "on the street" (or "out in the wild" as I call it), it will most likely be themselves against multiple attackers, or an attacker that believes that they have a significant physical advantage because they are bigger, intoxicated or armed. Sometimes it is all those aspects combined. In which case, there are things above and beyond simple physical training and skills that would facilitate their own well-being. What would that be? Well, here's a short list:

1) Common Sense. You want to be able to increase your chances of survival out in the wild? How about not putting yourself in potentially dangerous situations? Regardless of what Martial Art one prescribes to, if they are taking it for the purpose of self-defense and the place they are learning it from does live sparring all day long and doesn't take at least 2 minutes to address discretion and better judgement, then that place is full of shit and doing a grand disservice to those who train there.

2) A Prepared Precautionary Mindset. This goes hand-in-hand with Common Sense. While one may be consciously going out of their way to avoid being put in dangerous situations, it helps a lot to be wary of the possiblity that the meurde may hit the ventallitor at any given time. In which case being able to assess avenues of escape and taking into account surroundings, things that can be used for defense as weapons or shields and keeping in mind if you have any companions of your own that may be less capable of defending themselves mean the difference between life and death. You may be a macho man with the ability to take Fedor down with a sneeze in his direction, but if you end up in a situation where your friends or family end up hurt or dead because of your own machismo it's not going to do them any good and it's going to prove how powerless you really are.

3) A Will to Survive. Regardless of what walk in life you choose, if your will to survive is weak you will not be able to defend yourself. It is simply the law of nature. The reason why many Martial Arts practitioners do end up defending themselves well is that process of hardening oneself in body and mind engenders a strong will to survive. We must keep in mind that Humans are animals, and all animals will succumb to death without an avenue to defend themselves or a will to do so. Via the Martial Arts (regardless of style) many people are able equip themselves with tools they believe will help them survive and enforce in themselves a will to do so.

4) Discretion. This is related to Common Sense, and to be truthful sometimes the best alternative for survival is running. I will take it further in including that many times the best way to survive a fight is knowing not to start one in the first place. I'm not quite sure that it is a definite truism that "It takes a bigger man to walk away," but I know for damn sure that the man who walks away lives a longer life 9 times out of 10.

5) Clarity of Thought. Quick thinking and the ability to stay calm will save you faster than any quick punch, chokehold or trigger finger. You can be as physically powerful and imposing as a herd of stampeding oxen, but your strength and agression doesn't mean anything if you end up mindlessly charging off a steep cliff to your own demise.

What a lot of the posters in this thread have neglected to grasp is that there are reason why the Martial Arts exist. Each and every style was brought about from a situation that required their practitioners to defend their lives via hand-to-hand combat. Now we no longer live in an era where countries decide wars via the sword and shield (modern firearms have changed the landscape of warfare), so such skills eventually become sportative. Yes, that even applies to all the popular "modern" MMA styles. What people tend to forget is that it is not the Content of techniques for an individual style that determines its "usefulness" but the Context in which they are taught and practiced. It's the reason why an Olympic level Marksmen will lose in a gun-fight with a hardened soldier. They would be used to shooting at metal targets, not at human beings that shoot back.

Let's take into account Alex Gong the Middleweight MT monster who died on August 1, 2003. In all rights he would have been able to handle himself in any physical altercation on the street with well over 90% of the human populace. However, he lost his life because of one moment of indiscretion when he lost his temper and chased down a guy who hit his car. It just goes to prove that your legacy and prowess in your life or any martial art (whether it be Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ, MT, TKD, Hapkido, JKD, etc) only count as footnotes of tragedy if you end up dead. In the end, the Martial Arts tend to be deeper evidence of our own mortality and powerlessness not a gauranteed avenue to power or longevity.
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Old 02-06-2007, 08:10 PM   #62 (permalink)
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Wow Onganju...that is so true.
Rep'd. Thanks for that.
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Old 02-07-2007, 12:18 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
Yeah, when those giant guys just stand around waiting for him to demonstrate. Or even if they're "half-resisting", they're still not fighting back like in real life... I'd like to see him pull that shit when a giant is swinging for his face and nuts without anything to hold him back and the giant isn't drunk or slow as shit.
Well, as a matter of fact that’s his job – he runs a security company that deals with people that get out of hand and become very aggressive. Some of them are big guys and some are small – it doesn’t matter what size they are. The concept of Chukido-Kwan is to use the most effective techniques to self-defend and control an attacker. As I mentioned Chukido-Kwan is a mixture of Hapkido and Chinese Kempo along with striking techniques from boxing and grappling techniques from both Jiu-jitsu and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. The areas that it uses from Hapkido are the three main principles: “Hwa” or non-resistance; “Won” or circular motion; and “Ryu” or the water principle. These can be referenced in Wikipedia under Hapkido.

Hwa requires you to stay relaxed and not oppose an opponent’s strength. When an attack is launched at you, you don’t necessarily retreat because doing so will only keep you in your opponent’s power zone. Instead, you change the angles and move out of the way (also called tai sabaki in Karate) – this can be as little as pivoting such that your body moves a few inches to one side you while at the same time you use a soft hand technique to deflect the strike so that the attack misses you. You are then in a position to use your opponents momentum against him. The bigger the opponent is the more momentum you can use against him. The principle is to use you opponent’s momentum to break his centreline or get him to over commit. When he is off-balance, then you can throw him or retaliate by a strike to a vital target. We practice striking pressure points to inflict maximum pain. This is similar to the US military combat training guide. The following is an actual except taken from the guide which states the following:

CHAPTER 4
MEDIUM-RANGE COMBATIVES
In medium-range combatives, two opponents are already within touching
distance. The arsenal of possible body weapons includes short punches and
strikes with elbows, knees, and hands. Head butts are also effective; do not forget
them during medium-range combat. A soldier uses his peripheral vision to
evaluate the targets presented by the opponent and choose his target. He should
be aggressive and concentrate his attack on the opponent's vital points to end the
fight as soon as possible.

4-1. VITAL TARGETS
The body is divided into three sections: high, middle, and low. Each
section contains vital targets (Figure 4-1, pages 4-5 and 4-6). The effects of
striking these targets follow:
a. High Section. The high section includes the head and neck; it is the most
dangerous target area.
(1) Top of the head. The skull is weak where the frontal cranial bones join.
A forceful strike causes trauma to the cranial cavity, resulting in
unconsciousness and hemorrhage. A severe strike can result in death.
(2) Forehead. A forceful blow can cause whiplash; a severe blow can
cause cerebral hemorrhage and death.
(3) Temple. The bones of the skull are weak at the temple, and an artery
and large nerve lie close to the skin. A powerful strike can cause
unconsciousness and brain concussion. If the artery is severed, the resulting
massive hemorrhage compresses the brain, causing coma and or death.
(4) Eyes. A slight jab in the eyes causes uncontrollable watering and
blurred vision. A forceful jab or poke can cause temporary blindness, or the
eyes can be gouged out. Death can result if the fingers penetrate through the
thin bone behind the eyes and into the brain.
(5) Ears. A strike to the ear with cupped hands can rupture the eardrum
and may cause a brain concussion.
(6) Nose. Any blow can easily break the thin bones of the nose, causing
extreme pain and eye watering.
(7) Under the nose. A blow to the nerve center, which is close to the
surface under the nose, can cause great pain and watery eyes.
(8) Jaw. A blow to the jaw can break or dislocate it. If the facial nerve is
pinched against the lower jaw, one side of the face will be paralyzed.
(9) Chin. A blow to the chin can cause paralysis, mild concussion, and
unconsciousness. The jawbone acts as a lever that can transmit the force of
a blow to the back of the brain where the cardiac and respiratory mechanisms
are controlled.
(10) Back of ears and base of skull. A moderate blow to the back of the
ears or the base of the skull can cause unconsciousness by the jarring effect
on the back of the brain. However, a powerful blow can cause a concussion
or brain hemorrhage and death.
(11) Throat. A powerful blow to the front of the throat can cause death
by crushing the windpipe. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and gagging
or vomiting.
(12) Side of neck. A sharp blow to the side of the neck causes
unconsciousness by shock to the carotid artery, jugular vein, and vagus nerve.
For maximum effect, the blow should be focused below and slightly in front
of the ear. A less powerful blow causes involuntary muscle spasms and
intense pain. The side of the neck is one of the best targets to use to drop an
opponent immediately or to disable him temporarily to finish him later.
(13) Back of neck. A powerful blow to the back of one’s neck can cause
whiplash, concussion, or even a broken neck and death.
b. Middle Section. The middle section extends from the shoulders to the
area just above the hips. Most blows to vital points in this region are not fatal
but can have serious, long-term complications that range from trauma to
internal organs to spinal cord injuries.
(1) Front of shoulder muscle. A large bundle of nerves passes in front of
the shoulder joint. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and can make the
whole arm ineffective if the nerves are struck just right.
(2) Collarbone. A blow to the collarbone can fracture it, causing intense
pain and rendering the arm on the side of the fracture ineffective. The
fracture can also sever the brachial nerve or subclavian artery.
(3) Armpit. A large nerve lies close to the skin in each armpit. A blow to
this nerve causes severe pain and partial paralysis. A knife inserted into the
armpit is fatal as it severs a major artery leading from the heart.
(4) Spine. A blow to the spinal column can sever the spinal cord, resulting
in paralysis or in death.
(5) Nipples. A large network of nerves passes near the skin at the nipples.
A blow here can cause extreme pain and hemorrhage to the many blood
vessels beneath.
(6) Heart. A jolting blow to the heart can stun the opponent and allow
time for follow-up or finishing techniques.
(7) Solar plexus. The solar plexus is a center for nerves that control the
cardiorespiratory system. A blow to this location is painful and can take the
breath from the opponent. A powerful blow causes unconsciousness by
shock to the nerve center. A penetrating blow can also damage internal
organs.
(8) Diaphragm. A blow to the lower front of the ribs can cause the
diaphragm and the other muscles that control breathing to relax. This causes
loss of breath and can result in unconsciousness due to respiratory failure.
(9) Floating ribs. A blow to the floating ribs can easily fracture them
because they are not attached to the rib cage. Fractured ribs on the right side
can cause internal injury to the liver; fractured ribs on either side can possibly
puncture or collapse a lung.
(10) Kidneys. A powerful blow to the kidneys can induce shock and can
possibly cause internal injury to these organs. A stab to the kidneys induces
instant shock and can cause death from severe internal bleeding.
(11) Abdomen below navel. A powerful blow to the area below the navel
and above the groin can cause shock, unconsciousness, and internal bleeding.
(12) Biceps. A strike to the biceps is most painful and renders the arm
ineffective. The biceps is an especially good target when an opponent holds
a weapon.
(13) Forearm muscle. The radial nerve, which controls much of the
movement in the hand, passes over the forearm bone just below the elbow.
A strike to the radial nerve renders the hand and arm ineffective. An
opponent can be disarmed by a strike to the forearm; if the strike is powerful
enough, he can be knocked unconscious.
(14) Back of hand. The backs of the hands are sensitive. Since the nerves
pass over the bones in the hand, a strike to this area is intensely painful. The
small bones on the back of the hand are easily broken and such a strike can
also render the hand ineffective.
c. Low Section. The low section of the body includes everything from the
groin area to the feet. Strikes to these areas are seldom fatal, but they can be
incapacitating.
(1) Groin. A moderate blow to the groin can incapacitate an opponent
and cause intense pain. A powerful blow can result in unconsciousness and
shock.
(2) Outside of thigh. A large nerve passes near the surface on the outside
of the thigh about four finger-widths above the knee. A powerful strike to
this region can render the entire leg ineffective, causing an opponent to drop.
This target is especially suitable for knee strikes and shin kicks.
(3) Inside of thigh. A large nerve passes over the bone about in the middle
of the inner thigh. A blow to this area also incapacitates the leg and can cause
the opponent to drop. Knee strikes and heel kicks are the weapons of choice
for this target.
(4) Hamstring. A severe strike to the hamstring can cause muscle spasms
and inhibit mobility. If the hamstring is cut, the leg is useless.
(5) Knee. Because the knee is a major supporting structure of the body,
damage to this joint is especially detrimental to an opponent. The knee is
easily dislocated when struck at an opposing angle to the joint’s normal range
of motion, especially when it is bearing the opponent’s weight. The knee can
be dislocated or hyperextended by kicks and strikes with the entire body.
(6) Calf. A powerful blow to the top of the calf causes painful muscle
spasms and also inhibits mobility.
(7) Shin. A moderate blow to the shin produces great pain, especially a
blow with a hard object. A powerful blow can possibly fracture the bone that
supports most of the body weight.
(8) Achilles tendon. A powerful strike to the Achilles tendon on the back
of the heel can cause ankle sprain and dislocation of the foot. If the tendon
is torn, the opponent is incapacitated. The Achilles tendon is a good target
to cut with a knife.
(9) Ankle. A blow to the ankle causes pain; if a forceful blow is delivered,
the ankle can be sprained or broken.
(10) Instep. The small bones on the top of the foot are easily broken. A
strike here will hinder the opponent’s mobility.

Vital points.gif

Vital points2.gif

There are over 700 pressure points on a human body that when attacked can incapacitate your opponent at least for a few moments, allowing the time to transition to another point of attack.

I suppose the next thing you are going to say is that military commandos are a bunch of pussies too and that these techniques cannot be used in fighting situations. Wake up! These techniques are designed to dispose of someone who is trying to kill you, not just punch you in the head.

Won, the circular principle, is a way to gain momentum for executing the techniques in a natural and free-flowing manner. If an opponent attacks in linear motion with a strike or knife thrust, the opponent’s force is redirected by leading the attack in a circular pattern, thereby adding the attacker's power to your own. Once the power of the attack is redirected, any number of techniques can be executed to incapacitate your opponent (see above). The idea is to use your opponents energy against himself so the bigger the person is, the more energy a person has, the better it can be used against him.

Ryu, the water principle, can be thought of as the soft, adaptable strength of water. Hapkido is "soft" in that it does not rely on physical force alone, much like water is soft to touch. The idea here is to redirect or deflect your opponent’s strike, in a way that is similar to free-flowing water being divided around a stone only to return and envelop it.

"As the flowing stream penetrates and surrounds its obstructions and as dripping water eventually penetrates the stone, so does the hapkido strength flow in and through its opponents."

These techniques are very effective against any sized individual, although it is true that they are more difficult to utilize on a very large adversary – hence the need for softening up tactics which include the use of pressure point strikes (again see above).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
No one who is not an idiot will try to bob and weave outside the boxing ring. Or block much for that matter.. unlike traditional Martial Artists, boxers and kickboxers can separate the sport aspects of the art from the practical aspects. For a lot of traditional martial arts, there IS no practical aspect so the separation is out of question.. flashy movie gimmicks, stupid jumping kicks, pitter-patter sparring kicks and punches, restricitive forms and katas crap.

Even one of the greatest modern practioners of martial arts, Bruce Lee saw the inherent flashiness and fluff present in a lot of traditional MAs... hence the creation of JKD where he cuts away the fluff and keeps the substance. AND he borrows heavily from western boxing and kickboxing (his own words).

Yes, there are some good practical traditional MA's .. Muay Thai, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo etc. There are some traditional MAs that are part fluff and part practical .. Judo, and some forms of Karate and Kung Fu come to mind. There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.. Kyokushin Karate and San Shou Kung Fu for example. There are truly scientific modern MAs that are devastating, like JKD and the Russian Systema. There are modern MAs that claim to be scientific and practical but are really a money-making way of convincing little kids and petite women that they can suddenly beat 6'8 300lbs giants armed with anything from knives to rocket launchers .. Krav Maga is one of those. AND THEN, there are the traditional martial arts that are ALL FLUFF ... TKD, Aikido, Hapkido, and most forms of Karate and Kung Fu.
What you say here is ridiculous. Certainly if you do not know how to block and redirect your opponent’s strikes you are in big trouble. What do you think a fighter does when their opponent in the Octagon has mounted them. They block while they attempt to regain guard or roll out and regain their feet. If you can’t block you will get your ass kicked in short order. Karate teaches that blocks are actually offensive weapons, to be used to gain an advantage over your opponent. Soft hands techniques actually inflict significant pain to the person who is striking and are offensive weapons in their own right. As well, learning to weave is important because failing to do so means that you will eat a lot of strikes – if you watch any fight in the UFC, you will see the fighters moving their heads and shifting their bodies to make them more harder to hit and also to avoid any strikes.

Your argument also is very simplistic in that it assumes that different schools teach pure martial arts styles only. This is totally untrue. A Grandmaster that has spent his entire life absorbing multiple styles and holds rank in many different forms of martial arts will usually construct his own system which will include what he considers the most effective of all of the different styles – hence our blend of Hapkido, Kempo, striking and grappling. The following link will take you to a Sambo training video from Club Kozak which teaches Sambo in Quebec Canada.

Club Kozak Click on the videos tab

Chukido-Kwan uses many of these same techniques which is not surprising since many of them have roots in Jiu-jitsu. Krav Maga also uses similar techniques and so do many other combat style schools.

Your classification of some martial arts as “ALL FLUFF” makes me believe one of two things about you: 1) you are totally ignorant of the teachings and techniques in these styles or 2) you are prone to hyperbole in order to try to influence people with your weak arguments. I’m sorry but the only people you will convince are people with no knowledge like yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
I would agree partially.. of all the "-Do" forms, Judo is the by far the most practical. It still has a lot of stuff inapplicable in a real fight, but by and large it is adaptable to the real world and even the MMA ring. As for Aikido... if you feel comfortable using it in a fight, you're probably REAL comfortable. Like comfortably lying on the floor unconcious. Yes, I was unfortunate enough to take a couple of classes in it, and that was all I needed to see how ridiculous it was;

"I am going to come at you THIS way.. and you casually move out of the way and 'redirect' my force. Also, did I mention I'm 6 years old and retarded?.. because I never alter my blows to follow you, I attack off balance, and never use combinations."
I think it is hilarious that you took two classes and came to the opinion that Aikido is useless. Martial arts like Aikido and Hapkido take years of three or more three hour classes every week to master and yet you are apparently enough of a natural martial artist that you can dismiss them outright. You must be a very narrow minded and one-dimensional individual.

You also think that the use of the techniques I have described require someone to come at me one way – again this is a laughable remark from you. You imply that I cannot move out of your way …. Hmmm, I see MMA fighters in the ring constantly move out of the way by employing angles through sideways movement. By your rational, they wouldn’t be able to do but should just stay there and let you hit them. You also imply that the only way traditional martial arts are effective is if the same type of blows are utilized. I’m not sure who you have trained under but they must have got their black belt down at the local GAP store. As for opponents, usually they attack in balance but end up off balance because of the way the they are defended against. Combinations can only be effective if they can be landed – if you punch me with a jab and I hyper extend your elbow and end up to your side with you in a armbar and a choke, you’re going to have a hell of a time trying to land the right cross. Especially when I collapse your knee from the side and then put you in a guillotine choke.

You did make a point earlier that does have some merit. Generally, some martial arts schools that teach Aikido, Hapkido and other styles do not have much in the way of actual sparring. Part of the reason for that is that lower belts have a tendency to injure other people because they do not yet have control of the techniques yet. Higher level belts definitely do spar although this may not be true at all schools. We employ a situation where one individual is standing in the middle of the floor and surrounded in a circle by the rest of the class. Each member has been given a number and when his number is called he attacks the person in the center with no warning – from whatever side they may be on. The person in the centre must defend against the attack and finish the attacker. Then the next number is called. Depending on the belt level of the individual in the centre different attacking and striking techniques are used. This may include takedowns and grappling with submissions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.

And I keep hearing how traditional martial arts aren't in MMA because they're too deadly, or they don't want to "sell" their noble arts for money, or they're better for streets because they concentrate on stuff not allowed by the rules blah blah blah. The real reason you won't see most of them is they plain suck. Don't want to sell for money? Why do we see them competing in other, more rule based fighting tournaments (like K1) which are just as much about the money then? Too deadly and rule breaking? Why did they get mauled during the first 3 UFCs which allowed groin-kicks, hair pulls and just about anything under the sun then? They need to stop making these excuses and show hard proof. But they can't, because in the end they suck, so they'll create the false mysticism and bloated rumors about their deadliness. And gain followers in the form of people who've never been in a real fight, just watch movies, and don't know the difference.
Again your ignorance is simply astounding. Some of us have no interest in fighting in the UFC – that is our choice, certainly if I wished to do so I would follow your advice and train with focus on Muay Thai and BJJ but I don’t. To categorize my style and the styles of other more traditional martial artists as “crap” and “fluff” is simply a way for you to try and inflate your own ego.

Some arts are more suitable for fighting in the ring and that’s why they predominate. Certainly combat techniques and styles are not suitable because of the potential for severe trauma. As I mentioned in an earlier post, no one wants to see fighters maimed and unable to continue their careers. I don’t think that anyone is making any excuses for their styles – I certainly don’t feel that I have to. However, it does appear that you are very insecure about your own technique in that you feel that trying to belittle other styles will make people think that your chosen style is better.

I anxiously await your reply.

Last edited by Combat_HapKiDo : 02-07-2007 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 02-07-2007, 10:55 AM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
What you say here is ridiculous. Certainly if you do not know how to block and redirect your opponent’s strikes you are in big trouble. What do you think a fighter does when their opponent in the Octagon has mounted them. They block while they attempt to regain guard or roll out and regain their feet. If you can’t block you will get your ass kicked in short order. Karate teaches that blocks are actually offensive weapons, to be used to gain an advantage over your opponent. Soft hands techniques actually inflict significant pain to the person who is striking and are offensive weapons in their own right. As well, learning to weave is important because failing to do so means that you will eat a lot of strikes – if you watch any fight in the UFC, you will see the fighters moving their heads and shifting their bodies to make them more harder to hit and also to avoid any strikes.
Read my words... I said you shouldn't block too much in the streets, never said anything about parrying (minor redirection of force) and dodging. Blocking is when you absorb the full force of the attack, and that'll only work well and consistently with giant boxing gloves on or if the strike is simulated and predictable. In real life with no gloves, the punches will get through most of the time, and it only takes one good one. Parrying (swatting the hand away slightly when it approaches your face, but not meeting it WAAAY out there like most traditional martial arts do, which can be easily punched around or faked out) is very effective in real fights and gives you openings, as is dodging (pure weaving), sidestepping and footwork. On the same note, BOBBING and weaving, which involves lowering your head down and opening you up to knees,clinches, headlocks etc., is not that effective. THAT is what i stated. Maybe you should read my words carefully before making stupid assumptions. As for UFC Fighter's blocking when on the ground, that's another big myth about street fighting .. "All fights go to the ground eventually". No they don't... of the many street fights I've seen and the few I've been stupid enough to be in, NONE of them went to the ground. There's usually multiple attackers so you never want to do that, and if you have a guy down, you don't walk into his guard to punch or elbow him. You kick his head into the pavement. Or even his back, sides, whatever.. with shoes on, you never need to bother with anything except kicking the crap out of someone when they're on the ground. That's what Lee Murray did to the grappling king Tito Ortiz in a real bar fight.


Quote:
Ryu, the water principle, can be thought of as the soft, adaptable strength of water. Hapkido is "soft" in that it does not rely on physical force alone, much like water is soft to touch. The idea here is to redirect or deflect your opponent’s strike, in a way that is similar to free-flowing water being divided around a stone only to return and envelop it.

"As the flowing stream penetrates and surrounds its obstructions and as dripping water eventually penetrates the stone, so does the hapkido strength flow in and through its opponents."
The exact type of false mysticism and mumbo-jumbo of traditional MAs that I was talking about. What tripe. I stand by my words.

Quote:
I suppose the next thing you are going to say is that military commandos are a bunch of pussies too and that these techniques cannot be used in fighting situations. Wake up! These techniques are designed to dispose of someone who is trying to kill you, not just punch you in the head.
The military kills with guns, not fists. When was the last time a soldier had to punch out a terrorist? They're tough, but that does nothing to validate their martial arts, that's a skill they barely use, if ever. Yes, a lot of us know where the lethal strikes are, and the pressure points. I'm not debating the effectiveness of striking those areas, and their lethal potential. I'm debating the traditional techniques used by traditional martial arts for hitting those points while protecting yourself. Not the techniques they've absorbed from other effective disciplines mind you, they have no right to claim those for to validate themselves, but their truly "traditional" ones.

Quote:
Hwa requires you to stay relaxed and not oppose an opponent’s strength. When an attack is launched at you, you don’t necessarily retreat because doing so will only keep you in your opponent’s power zone. Instead, you change the angles and move out of the way (also called tai sabaki in Karate) – this can be as little as pivoting such that your body moves a few inches to one side you while at the same time you use a soft hand technique to deflect the strike so that the attack misses you. You are then in a position to use your opponents momentum against him. The bigger the opponent is the more momentum you can use against him. The principle is to use you opponent’s momentum to break his centreline or get him to over commit. When he is off-balance, then you can throw him or retaliate by a strike to a vital target. We practice striking pressure points to inflict maximum pain. This is similar to the US military combat training guide. The following is an actual except taken from the guide which states the following
Straight out of boxing. I agree, this is very effective, but this seems like something absorbed from boxing / muay thai. Even the terms like "pivot" and "soft hand parry" are standard boxing terms. Like I said above, stealing effective modern techniques from other disciplines doesn't say anything about actual Karate. Most traditional arts I've trained in for small amounts of time don't propose anything like this... they'll usually teach a ridiculous "stick your arm out completely rigid and vertical" block. Even worse is when they propose blocking kicks with something like that ... the shin bone is so much bigger and thicker than the forearm, that's an automatic fracture if the kick has any real power in it (like a MT round kick).

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Your argument also is very simplistic in that it assumes that different schools teach pure martial arts styles only. This is totally untrue. A Grandmaster that has spent his entire life absorbing multiple styles and holds rank in many different forms of martial arts will usually construct his own system which will include what he considers the most effective of all of the different styles – hence our blend of Hapkido, Kempo, striking and grappling. The following link will take you to a Sambo training video from Club Kozak which teaches Sambo in Quebec Canada.
Exactly.. the effective stuff is borrowed from the proven disciplines (Jiu-Jitsu, KickBoxing, MT, Sambo etc), while the fluff comes from the tradional ones. This puts your school in the " There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.."
category I outlined before. I'm guessing you have a good fighting capability because of the blend, but if you tell people to take Karate or Hapkido because of that, most of them will get jipped into a fluff filled waste of time.

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I think it is hilarious that you took two classes and came to the opinion that Aikido is useless. Martial arts like Aikido and Hapkido take years of three or more three hour classes every week to master and yet you are apparently enough of a natural martial artist that you can dismiss them outright. You must be a very narrow minded and one-dimensional individual.
I've seen enough of real fights and been in them to picture what would fall apart under pressure. I've seen TKD black belts get mauled by the average high-school bully, and I see the similarities with the unrealistic tactics right away. Don't need to waste 3 years for that.


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You also think that the use of the techniques I have described require someone to come at me one way – again this is a laughable remark from you. You imply that I cannot move out of your way …. Hmmm, I see MMA fighters in the ring constantly move out of the way by employing angles through sideways movement. By your rational, they wouldn’t be able to do but should just stay there and let you hit them. You also imply that the only way traditional martial arts are effective is if the same type of blows are utilized. I’m not sure who you have trained under but they must have got their black belt down at the local GAP store. As for opponents, usually they attack in balance but end up off balance because of the way the they are defended against. Combinations can only be effective if they can be landed – if you punch me with a jab and I hyper extend your elbow and end up to your side with you in a armbar and a choke, you’re going to have a hell of a time trying to land the right cross. Especially when I collapse your knee from the side and then put you in a guillotine choke.
Grab my jab and hyper-extend my elbow with it. Wonderful. Have you ever seen ANYONE in MMA (or even K1) EVER attempt to grab a jab?? Do you realize how quick fists are? With any decent fighter, there's barely enough time to get in a quick parry or a dodge/weave, and you propose a full GRAB of the arm WHILE it's extended for a split second AND the other arm is free to counter-punch you and knock you out?? Not to mention knees and takedowns. Armbars are effective when your opponents are not fully mobile and their kicks, punches are constrained in some way. Usually this means they're on the ground. Not when they're fully mobile and punching. Oh and I didn't imply that it's impossible to move out of a blow's way.. sitestepping is common in boxing/KB/MT as well. What I thought silly was the attempt to grab the arm after that and do stupid shit like try to flip the guy over or twist it. He'll just pull in for a hook or a knee.

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You did make a point earlier that does have some merit. Generally, some martial arts schools that teach Aikido, Hapkido and other styles do not have much in the way of actual sparring.
Exactly. Whatever the reason, there's never any proof. They could come up with padded coverings or whatever to prevent the lethal potential of the strikes, and rule out some of the extreme stuff and still have a semi-proof worthy sparring session. But that would be MMA, and we all know how they do in MMA.

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Again your ignorance is simply astounding. Some of us have no interest in fighting in the UFC – that is our choice, certainly if I wished to do so I would follow your advice and train with focus on Muay Thai and BJJ but I don’t. To categorize my style and the styles of other more traditional martial artists as “crap” and “fluff” is simply a way for you to try and inflate your own ego.
I'm not doing this for my ego. I am confident in my abilities yet humble enough to admit there's plenty of people out there that could beat the stuffing out of me. I'm doing this so that when people make a choice about learning martial arts, they get the real self-defence skills they want for all the the hard work, time, money and sweat they put into it, instead of some silly analogies with water and stones and a thousand ways to bow.
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:02 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.
I never said they had success in K1 because of the TKD. Somebody asked why, if the traditional arts are so good why aren't there MMA competitors training in them, to which I replied that there are people in MMA (such as K1) that have trained in a TA, it isn't rare. It only becomes rare in the UFC.

But ya, I don't see how that is hypocritical. I said nothing about how the TKD people do amazing compared to others, I never said that TKD is superior to other arts because it's a TA. I just stated that people have done TA and then done MMA.
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Old 02-07-2007, 05:05 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Karate: Teaches speed in striking and alot of things that are missed in styles like TKD, but it is still lacking, because it misses things that an MMA striker in this day and age thinks are pretty basic. (Knees, elbows and clinches) There is also no real preparation for the ground.
You need to check out Kyokushin Karate (I've mentioned this art in other threads). Kyokushin Karate is similar to Muay Thai, and allows elbows,knees and the clinch.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:26 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zapatista
I never said they had success in K1 because of the TKD. Somebody asked why, if the traditional arts are so good why aren't there MMA competitors training in them, to which I replied that there are people in MMA (such as K1) that have trained in a TA, it isn't rare. It only becomes rare in the UFC.

But ya, I don't see how that is hypocritical. I said nothing about how the TKD people do amazing compared to others, I never said that TKD is superior to other arts because it's a TA. I just stated that people have done TA and then done MMA.
The fact that they trained in TKD before coming to MMA means nothing. I trained in TKD for a year as a kid, and I compete in amateur MMA. That doesn't validate TKD for me by any means, i still think it was a waste of my time. How many MMA fighters that trained in TKD actually use it in MMA is the question. Besides the occasional roundhouse kick, I never see ANY of it used. Usually they end up either being a "freestyler" or training in other disciplines.
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Old 02-07-2007, 11:29 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Zapatista
You need to check out Kyokushin Karate (I've mentioned this art in other threads). Kyokushin Karate is similar to Muay Thai, and allows elbows,knees and the clinch.
similar is an understatement. A direct copy of Muay Thai made in the 1960s is more like it.. it's 95% Muay thai (stance, kicks, elbows, everything) and 5% karate. That being said, it is effective.
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Old 02-08-2007, 03:42 PM   #69 (permalink)
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The fact that they trained in TKD before coming to MMA means nothing. I trained in TKD for a year as a kid, and I compete in amateur MMA. That doesn't validate TKD for me by any means, i still think it was a waste of my time. How many MMA fighters that trained in TKD actually use it in MMA is the question. Besides the occasional roundhouse kick, I never see ANY of it used. Usually they end up either being a "freestyler" or training in other disciplines.
You don't seem to be getting my point. I never said anything about TKD effectiveness in the ring, somebody, it might have been you, asked about the TMA not going into MMA and I just stated that there are a lot that do TMA that progress into MMA, but you seem to be fixated on the effectiveness, which you didn't ask about.

If you look at the early UFC's, there was somebody who did well against strikers that trained in TKD. He lost to Shamrock because of the ground game.
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Old 02-09-2007, 11:57 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Most people who train in a single style only reagardless of what it is in general will not do well in MMA, but on the street that will have an advantage over the majority of the untrained populace.
Now as for saying TMA is not used in MMA ( I think I read that somewhere in this thread) Umm Just about everything used in the ring comes from some for of TMA . MMA is NOT its own style of fighting. Its a concept of competition that takes from all and every fighting art form there is. Its up to the individual competitor to take what he know and what he is capable of and apply it to his in ring performance. It is after all called Mixed MARTIAL ARTS. Mixed meaning to take different things and put them together. I mean were all arguing two sides of the same coin. Nearly every MMA competitor has some training in a TMA for instance, Muay Thai, BJJ, JJJ, TKD, JKD, Judo, Karate, Boxing (its centuries old and qualifies as a TMA) So really all this point is moot, AS I have said and I beleive Zapitista and Iron man have said.. The only factor that matters is the individual using the art that they have learned. . NO ONE style or training method is better then any other (except whatever it is Fedor does) EVERY style has a place somewhere weather in the real world or in the MMA ring. GRanted some techniques work better then others but again that all depends on the person performing them.

Side note.. as for grabbing someones punch and using that into an arm bar. Well I did that in a real fight only the kid did not throw a punch he was doing a knife thrust and I ended up shattering his elbow. . And another time I did a great double leg take down into a mount which became a simple ground and pound . One a TMA technique that worked in the real world. the other a more common MMA technique that worked in the real world. Funny thing is I never "Offically" studied in any MMA class.. I just have about 24 years of various TMA training.. Hmm Go figure.
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