Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
Yeah, when those giant guys just stand around waiting for him to demonstrate. Or even if they're "half-resisting", they're still not fighting back like in real life... I'd like to see him pull that shit when a giant is swinging for his face and nuts without anything to hold him back and the giant isn't drunk or slow as shit.
Well, as a matter of fact that’s his job – he runs a security company that deals with people that get out of hand and become very aggressive. Some of them are big guys and some are small – it doesn’t matter what size they are. The concept of Chukido-Kwan is to use the most effective techniques to self-defend and control an attacker. As I mentioned Chukido-Kwan is a mixture of Hapkido and Chinese Kempo along with striking techniques from boxing and grappling techniques from both Jiu-jitsu and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. The areas that it uses from Hapkido are the three main principles: “Hwa” or non-resistance; “Won” or circular motion; and “Ryu” or the water principle. These can be referenced in Wikipedia under Hapkido.
Hwa requires you to stay relaxed and not oppose an opponent’s strength. When an attack is launched at you, you don’t necessarily retreat because doing so will only keep you in your opponent’s power zone. Instead, you change the angles and move out of the way (also called tai sabaki in Karate) – this can be as little as pivoting such that your body moves a few inches to one side you while at the same time you use a soft hand technique to deflect the strike so that the attack misses you. You are then in a position to use your opponents momentum against him. The bigger the opponent is the more momentum you can use against him. The principle is to use you opponent’s momentum to break his centreline or get him to over commit. When he is off-balance, then you can throw him or retaliate by a strike to a vital target. We practice striking pressure points to inflict maximum pain. This is similar to the US military combat training guide. The following is an actual except taken from the guide which states the following:
In medium-range combatives, two opponents are already within touching
distance. The arsenal of possible body weapons includes short punches and
strikes with elbows, knees, and hands. Head butts are also effective; do not forget
them during medium-range combat. A soldier uses his peripheral vision to
evaluate the targets presented by the opponent and choose his target. He should
be aggressive and concentrate his attack on the opponent's vital points to end the
fight as soon as possible.
4-1. VITAL TARGETS
The body is divided into three sections: high, middle, and low. Each
section contains vital targets (Figure 4-1, pages 4-5 and 4-6). The effects of
striking these targets follow:
a. High Section. The high section includes the head and neck; it is the most
dangerous target area.
(1) Top of the head. The skull is weak where the frontal cranial bones join.
A forceful strike causes trauma to the cranial cavity, resulting in
unconsciousness and hemorrhage. A severe strike can result in death.
(2) Forehead. A forceful blow can cause whiplash; a severe blow can
cause cerebral hemorrhage and death.
(3) Temple. The bones of the skull are weak at the temple, and an artery
and large nerve lie close to the skin. A powerful strike can cause
unconsciousness and brain concussion. If the artery is severed, the resulting
massive hemorrhage compresses the brain, causing coma and or death.
(4) Eyes. A slight jab in the eyes causes uncontrollable watering and
blurred vision. A forceful jab or poke can cause temporary blindness, or the
eyes can be gouged out. Death can result if the fingers penetrate through the
thin bone behind the eyes and into the brain.
(5) Ears. A strike to the ear with cupped hands can rupture the eardrum
and may cause a brain concussion.
(6) Nose. Any blow can easily break the thin bones of the nose, causing
extreme pain and eye watering.
(7) Under the nose. A blow to the nerve center, which is close to the
surface under the nose, can cause great pain and watery eyes.
(8) Jaw. A blow to the jaw can break or dislocate it. If the facial nerve is
pinched against the lower jaw, one side of the face will be paralyzed.
(9) Chin. A blow to the chin can cause paralysis, mild concussion, and
unconsciousness. The jawbone acts as a lever that can transmit the force of
a blow to the back of the brain where the cardiac and respiratory mechanisms
(10) Back of ears and base of skull. A moderate blow to the back of the
ears or the base of the skull can cause unconsciousness by the jarring effect
on the back of the brain. However, a powerful blow can cause a concussion
or brain hemorrhage and death.
(11) Throat. A powerful blow to the front of the throat can cause death
by crushing the windpipe. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and gagging
(12) Side of neck. A sharp blow to the side of the neck causes
unconsciousness by shock to the carotid artery, jugular vein, and vagus nerve.
For maximum effect, the blow should be focused below and slightly in front
of the ear. A less powerful blow causes involuntary muscle spasms and
intense pain. The side of the neck is one of the best targets to use to drop an
opponent immediately or to disable him temporarily to finish him later.
(13) Back of neck. A powerful blow to the back of one’s neck can cause
whiplash, concussion, or even a broken neck and death.
b. Middle Section. The middle section extends from the shoulders to the
area just above the hips. Most blows to vital points in this region are not fatal
but can have serious, long-term complications that range from trauma to
internal organs to spinal cord injuries.
(1) Front of shoulder muscle. A large bundle of nerves passes in front of
the shoulder joint. A forceful blow causes extreme pain and can make the
whole arm ineffective if the nerves are struck just right.
(2) Collarbone. A blow to the collarbone can fracture it, causing intense
pain and rendering the arm on the side of the fracture ineffective. The
fracture can also sever the brachial nerve or subclavian artery.
(3) Armpit. A large nerve lies close to the skin in each armpit. A blow to
this nerve causes severe pain and partial paralysis. A knife inserted into the
armpit is fatal as it severs a major artery leading from the heart.
(4) Spine. A blow to the spinal column can sever the spinal cord, resulting
in paralysis or in death.
(5) Nipples. A large network of nerves passes near the skin at the nipples.
A blow here can cause extreme pain and hemorrhage to the many blood
(6) Heart. A jolting blow to the heart can stun the opponent and allow
time for follow-up or finishing techniques.
(7) Solar plexus. The solar plexus is a center for nerves that control the
cardiorespiratory system. A blow to this location is painful and can take the
breath from the opponent. A powerful blow causes unconsciousness by
shock to the nerve center. A penetrating blow can also damage internal
(8) Diaphragm. A blow to the lower front of the ribs can cause the
diaphragm and the other muscles that control breathing to relax. This causes
loss of breath and can result in unconsciousness due to respiratory failure.
(9) Floating ribs. A blow to the floating ribs can easily fracture them
because they are not attached to the rib cage. Fractured ribs on the right side
can cause internal injury to the liver; fractured ribs on either side can possibly
puncture or collapse a lung.
(10) Kidneys. A powerful blow to the kidneys can induce shock and can
possibly cause internal injury to these organs. A stab to the kidneys induces
instant shock and can cause death from severe internal bleeding.
(11) Abdomen below navel. A powerful blow to the area below the navel
and above the groin can cause shock, unconsciousness, and internal bleeding.
(12) Biceps. A strike to the biceps is most painful and renders the arm
ineffective. The biceps is an especially good target when an opponent holds
(13) Forearm muscle. The radial nerve, which controls much of the
movement in the hand, passes over the forearm bone just below the elbow.
A strike to the radial nerve renders the hand and arm ineffective. An
opponent can be disarmed by a strike to the forearm; if the strike is powerful
enough, he can be knocked unconscious.
(14) Back of hand. The backs of the hands are sensitive. Since the nerves
pass over the bones in the hand, a strike to this area is intensely painful. The
small bones on the back of the hand are easily broken and such a strike can
also render the hand ineffective.
c. Low Section. The low section of the body includes everything from the
groin area to the feet. Strikes to these areas are seldom fatal, but they can be
(1) Groin. A moderate blow to the groin can incapacitate an opponent
and cause intense pain. A powerful blow can result in unconsciousness and
(2) Outside of thigh. A large nerve passes near the surface on the outside
of the thigh about four finger-widths above the knee. A powerful strike to
this region can render the entire leg ineffective, causing an opponent to drop.
This target is especially suitable for knee strikes and shin kicks.
(3) Inside of thigh. A large nerve passes over the bone about in the middle
of the inner thigh. A blow to this area also incapacitates the leg and can cause
the opponent to drop. Knee strikes and heel kicks are the weapons of choice
for this target.
(4) Hamstring. A severe strike to the hamstring can cause muscle spasms
and inhibit mobility. If the hamstring is cut, the leg is useless.
(5) Knee. Because the knee is a major supporting structure of the body,
damage to this joint is especially detrimental to an opponent. The knee is
easily dislocated when struck at an opposing angle to the joint’s normal range
of motion, especially when it is bearing the opponent’s weight. The knee can
be dislocated or hyperextended by kicks and strikes with the entire body.
(6) Calf. A powerful blow to the top of the calf causes painful muscle
spasms and also inhibits mobility.
(7) Shin. A moderate blow to the shin produces great pain, especially a
blow with a hard object. A powerful blow can possibly fracture the bone that
supports most of the body weight.
(8) Achilles tendon. A powerful strike to the Achilles tendon on the back
of the heel can cause ankle sprain and dislocation of the foot. If the tendon
is torn, the opponent is incapacitated. The Achilles tendon is a good target
to cut with a knife.
(9) Ankle. A blow to the ankle causes pain; if a forceful blow is delivered,
the ankle can be sprained or broken.
(10) Instep. The small bones on the top of the foot are easily broken. A
strike here will hinder the opponent’s mobility.
There are over 700 pressure points on a human body that when attacked can incapacitate your opponent at least for a few moments, allowing the time to transition to another point of attack.
I suppose the next thing you are going to say is that military commandos are a bunch of pussies too and that these techniques cannot be used in fighting situations. Wake up! These techniques are designed to dispose of someone who is trying to kill you, not just punch you in the head.
Won, the circular principle, is a way to gain momentum for executing the techniques in a natural and free-flowing manner. If an opponent attacks in linear motion with a strike or knife thrust, the opponent’s force is redirected by leading the attack in a circular pattern, thereby adding the attacker's power to your own. Once the power of the attack is redirected, any number of techniques can be executed to incapacitate your opponent (see above). The idea is to use your opponents energy against himself so the bigger the person is, the more energy a person has, the better it can be used against him.
Ryu, the water principle, can be thought of as the soft, adaptable strength of water. Hapkido is "soft" in that it does not rely on physical force alone, much like water is soft to touch. The idea here is to redirect or deflect your opponent’s strike, in a way that is similar to free-flowing water being divided around a stone only to return and envelop it.
"As the flowing stream penetrates and surrounds its obstructions and as dripping water eventually penetrates the stone, so does the hapkido strength flow in and through its opponents."
These techniques are very effective against any sized individual, although it is true that they are more difficult to utilize on a very large adversary – hence the need for softening up tactics which include the use of pressure point strikes (again see above).
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
No one who is not an idiot will try to bob and weave outside the boxing ring. Or block much for that matter.. unlike traditional Martial Artists, boxers and kickboxers can separate the sport aspects of the art from the practical aspects. For a lot of traditional martial arts, there IS no practical aspect so the separation is out of question.. flashy movie gimmicks, stupid jumping kicks, pitter-patter sparring kicks and punches, restricitive forms and katas crap.
Even one of the greatest modern practioners of martial arts, Bruce Lee saw the inherent flashiness and fluff present in a lot of traditional MAs... hence the creation of JKD where he cuts away the fluff and keeps the substance. AND he borrows heavily from western boxing and kickboxing (his own words).
Yes, there are some good practical traditional MA's .. Muay Thai, Kali, Jiu Jitsu, Sambo etc. There are some traditional MAs that are part fluff and part practical .. Judo, and some forms of Karate and Kung Fu come to mind. There are MAs that masquerade as traditional MAs in order to brighten their name but are really MMA disciplines borrowing successful techniques from other disciplines like Muay Thai etc.. Kyokushin Karate and San Shou Kung Fu for example. There are truly scientific modern MAs that are devastating, like JKD and the Russian Systema. There are modern MAs that claim to be scientific and practical but are really a money-making way of convincing little kids and petite women that they can suddenly beat 6'8 300lbs giants armed with anything from knives to rocket launchers .. Krav Maga is one of those. AND THEN, there are the traditional martial arts that are ALL FLUFF ... TKD, Aikido, Hapkido, and most forms of Karate and Kung Fu.
What you say here is ridiculous. Certainly if you do not know how to block and redirect your opponent’s strikes you are in big trouble. What do you think a fighter does when their opponent in the Octagon has mounted them. They block while they attempt to regain guard or roll out and regain their feet. If you can’t block you will get your ass kicked in short order. Karate teaches that blocks are actually offensive weapons, to be used to gain an advantage over your opponent. Soft hands techniques actually inflict significant pain to the person who is striking and are offensive weapons in their own right. As well, learning to weave is important because failing to do so means that you will eat a lot of strikes – if you watch any fight in the UFC, you will see the fighters moving their heads and shifting their bodies to make them more harder to hit and also to avoid any strikes.
Your argument also is very simplistic in that it assumes that different schools teach pure martial arts styles only. This is totally untrue. A Grandmaster that has spent his entire life absorbing multiple styles and holds rank in many different forms of martial arts will usually construct his own system which will include what he considers the most effective of all of the different styles – hence our blend of Hapkido, Kempo, striking and grappling. The following link will take you to a Sambo training video from Club Kozak which teaches Sambo in Quebec Canada.
Click on the videos tab
Chukido-Kwan uses many of these same techniques which is not surprising since many of them have roots in Jiu-jitsu. Krav Maga also uses similar techniques and so do many other combat style schools.
Your classification of some martial arts as “ALL FLUFF” makes me believe one of two things about you: 1) you are totally ignorant of the teachings and techniques in these styles or 2) you are prone to hyperbole in order to try to influence people with your weak arguments. I’m sorry but the only people you will convince are people with no knowledge like yourself.
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
I would agree partially.. of all the "-Do" forms, Judo is the by far the most practical. It still has a lot of stuff inapplicable in a real fight, but by and large it is adaptable to the real world and even the MMA ring. As for Aikido... if you feel comfortable using it in a fight, you're probably REAL comfortable. Like comfortably lying on the floor unconcious. Yes, I was unfortunate enough to take a couple of classes in it, and that was all I needed to see how ridiculous it was;
"I am going to come at you THIS way.. and you casually move out of the way and 'redirect' my force. Also, did I mention I'm 6 years old and retarded?.. because I never alter my blows to follow you, I attack off balance, and never use combinations."
I think it is hilarious that you took two classes and came to the opinion that Aikido is useless. Martial arts like Aikido and Hapkido take years of three or more three hour classes every week to master and yet you are apparently enough of a natural martial artist that you can dismiss them outright. You must be a very narrow minded and one-dimensional individual.
You also think that the use of the techniques I have described require someone to come at me one way – again this is a laughable remark from you. You imply that I cannot move out of your way …. Hmmm, I see MMA fighters in the ring constantly move out of the way by employing angles through sideways movement. By your rational, they wouldn’t be able to do but should just stay there and let you hit them. You also imply that the only way traditional martial arts are effective is if the same type of blows are utilized. I’m not sure who you have trained under but they must have got their black belt down at the local GAP store. As for opponents, usually they attack in balance but end up off balance because of the way the they are defended against. Combinations can only be effective if they can be landed – if you punch me with a jab and I hyper extend your elbow and end up to your side with you in a armbar and a choke, you’re going to have a hell of a time trying to land the right cross. Especially when I collapse your knee from the side and then put you in a guillotine choke.
You did make a point earlier that does have some merit. Generally, some martial arts schools that teach Aikido, Hapkido and other styles do not have much in the way of actual sparring. Part of the reason for that is that lower belts have a tendency to injure other people because they do not yet have control of the techniques yet. Higher level belts definitely do spar although this may not be true at all schools. We employ a situation where one individual is standing in the middle of the floor and surrounded in a circle by the rest of the class. Each member has been given a number and when his number is called he attacks the person in the center with no warning – from whatever side they may be on. The person in the centre must defend against the attack and finish the attacker. Then the next number is called. Depending on the belt level of the individual in the centre different attacking and striking techniques are used. This may include takedowns and grappling with submissions.
Originally Posted by Liddellianenko
You keep saying that MMA isn't a reflection of street fighting skills citing the small number of rules that it has as an excuse (most of which btw weren't in the early MMA like UFC 1-3). But then to validate crap like TKD, you cite it's success in K1 (which is debatable) .. K1 is 10 times more restrictive in terms of rules than regular MMA, how is that more a reflection of the street?? Hypocritical.
And I keep hearing how traditional martial arts aren't in MMA because they're too deadly, or they don't want to "sell" their noble arts for money, or they're better for streets because they concentrate on stuff not allowed by the rules blah blah blah. The real reason you won't see most of them is they plain suck. Don't want to sell for money? Why do we see them competing in other, more rule based fighting tournaments (like K1) which are just as much about the money then? Too deadly and rule breaking? Why did they get mauled during the first 3 UFCs which allowed groin-kicks, hair pulls and just about anything under the sun then? They need to stop making these excuses and show hard proof. But they can't, because in the end they suck, so they'll create the false mysticism and bloated rumors about their deadliness. And gain followers in the form of people who've never been in a real fight, just watch movies, and don't know the difference.
Again your ignorance is simply astounding. Some of us have no interest in fighting in the UFC – that is our choice, certainly if I wished to do so I would follow your advice and train with focus on Muay Thai and BJJ but I don’t. To categorize my style and the styles of other more traditional martial artists as “crap” and “fluff” is simply a way for you to try and inflate your own ego.
Some arts are more suitable for fighting in the ring and that’s why they predominate. Certainly combat techniques and styles are not suitable because of the potential for severe trauma. As I mentioned in an earlier post, no one wants to see fighters maimed and unable to continue their careers. I don’t think that anyone is making any excuses for their styles – I certainly don’t feel that I have to. However, it does appear that you are very insecure about your own technique in that you feel that trying to belittle other styles will make people think that your chosen style is better.
I anxiously await your reply.