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Old 01-24-2010, 07:28 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by americanfighter View Post
Dan was also international and defeated many Russians one of which was undefeated. The Russians were so impressed with him that they gave him a wolf fur coat i think after he won a Russian tounament. These were the years that the Russians were dominate so he wrestled the best internationaly and beat them all.
That's some serious exaggeration, and not statistically accurate.

Gable had a number of losses on the circuit between 1968 and 1972, when he won his Olympic gold medal. Of course, his Olympic performance was impressive. Not giving up a point is an amazing task. But Karelin did it, too, in 1996.

Even setting aside Gable's collegiate record, where he lost a handful of matches including an NCAA finals match in 1970, he didn't put up the numbers that Karelin did.

Gable had a number of losses on his international record, which can't be said of Karelin.

I'm a huge fan of Dan Gable. The guy had a great career and is probably the greatest American ever to step on the mat. His international success makes him better than the great NCAA folkstyle wrestlers like Chael Sanderson, but comparing him to a guy like Karelin, who competed strictly on the international circuit and was never even challenged during the peak of his career, is not reasonable.


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Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
In some aspects I understand, lot's of clinching and upper body control are part of both MMA and Greco. But, generally I disagree, so could you elaborate?

Well, from a purely statistical standpoint, there are a number of very well established Greco-Roman wrestlers in the top tier of MMA. There's also a solid number of folkstyle wrestlers that come out of the NCAA scene. The number of successful wrestlers in freestyle wrestling who turn to MMA and find success is much lower.

I think there's a good reason for that in terms of technique.

It's much more practical to use upper body control to establish major throws then to try and separate the position to look for a leg.

Most Greco-Roman wrestlers develop a lot of power in the clinch and no how to either twist their opponent down to the mat for a takedown or to pin their opponent against the cage. Freestyle wrestlers usually have to look for the legs to be effective in grappling competition and, if that's true in MMA, it makes working from the clinch very difficult.

Additionally, there's a lot of upper-body power built up by Greco-Roman wrestlers that helps with controlling their opponent in the clinch, but also in the guard position. When you see someone like Randy Couture use good ground control, it is often a product of his wrestling background more than cross-training.

Obviously, this is the short version, and I can get into specific techniques, but this is really the easiest way to explain it.

Greco-Roman wrestling is better for MMA than Judo because the athletes are already used to competing without the gi, but it's good for all of the same reasons Judo should be good in MMA. It has the ability to control the position of the fight from the clinch and, additionally, some basis for what to do when the fight hits the mat.
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:31 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
What I do know about jean claude van damme is that he has 19 pro fights, 11 wins by KO 7 wins by tko and 1 decision loss. Apparently he was at one point a legitimate bad ass.

But I heard he's fighting a guy who won a gold metal in olympic boxing. So unless he recently developed a good ground game and take down, I dunno how the 49 year old JCVD is going to fare.
I'm so relieved re: the legitimacy of his badass status.

I can see him being a quick learner, like Brock apparently is.
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:40 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
That's some serious exaggeration, and not statistically accurate.

Gable had a number of losses on the circuit between 1968 and 1972, when he won his Olympic gold medal. Of course, his Olympic performance was impressive. Not giving up a point is an amazing task. But Karelin did it, too, in 1996.

Even setting aside Gable's collegiate record, where he lost a handful of matches including an NCAA finals match in 1970, he didn't put up the numbers that Karelin did.

Gable had a number of losses on his international record, which can't be said of Karelin.

I'm a huge fan of Dan Gable. The guy had a great career and is probably the greatest American ever to step on the mat. His international success makes him better than the great NCAA folkstyle wrestlers like Chael Sanderson, but comparing him to a guy like Karelin, who competed strictly on the international circuit and was never even challenged during the peak of his career, is not reasonable.





Well, from a purely statistical standpoint, there are a number of very well established Greco-Roman wrestlers in the top tier of MMA. There's also a solid number of folkstyle wrestlers that come out of the NCAA scene. The number of successful wrestlers in freestyle wrestling who turn to MMA and find success is much lower.

I think there's a good reason for that in terms of technique.

It's much more practical to use upper body control to establish major throws then to try and separate the position to look for a leg.

Most Greco-Roman wrestlers develop a lot of power in the clinch and no how to either twist their opponent down to the mat for a takedown or to pin their opponent against the cage. Freestyle wrestlers usually have to look for the legs to be effective in grappling competition and, if that's true in MMA, it makes working from the clinch very difficult.

Additionally, there's a lot of upper-body power built up by Greco-Roman wrestlers that helps with controlling their opponent in the clinch, but also in the guard position. When you see someone like Randy Couture use good ground control, it is often a product of his wrestling background more than cross-training.

Obviously, this is the short version, and I can get into specific techniques, but this is really the easiest way to explain it.

Greco-Roman wrestling is better for MMA than Judo because the athletes are already used to competing without the gi, but it's good for all of the same reasons Judo should be good in MMA. It has the ability to control the position of the fight from the clinch and, additionally, some basis for what to do when the fight hits the mat.
Good points, but the major problem for using pure Greco in MMA is the necessity to close the distance and clinch. During that they are much more vulnerable against strikes, compared to freestyle guys going low for a single or double.
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:53 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Old 01-24-2010, 08:34 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
Good points, but the major problem for using pure Greco in MMA is the necessity to close the distance and clinch. During that they are much more vulnerable against strikes, compared to freestyle guys going low for a single or double.
I'm not entirely sure that's true.

It's much easier to close the distance for the clinch than it is to shoot in, especially with some basic boxing.

Dropping the head for a shot is one of the most dangerous ways to try and get the fight to the ground. Ask Ralph Gracie. Or Masakazu Imanari.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:04 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
I'm not entirely sure that's true.

It's much easier to close the distance for the clinch than it is to shoot in, especially with some basic boxing.

Dropping the head for a shot is one of the most dangerous ways to try and get the fight to the ground. Ask Ralph Gracie. Or Masakazu Imanari.
Head-dropping is a problem in Japan, hardly in the ufc.
Banning knees to the head of a downed opponent is a stress reducing factor for a lot of freestyle guys in the UFC, since they don't have to worry about getting nailed in the head.
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:30 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
Head-dropping is a problem in Japan, hardly in the ufc.
Banning knees to the head of a downed opponent is a stress reducing factor for a lot of freestyle guys in the UFC, since they don't have to worry about getting nailed in the head.
Sure, but in the UFC, you still see fewer shots over the years. That has a lot to do with guys realizing quickly that they can't cover the same amount of distance when they have to stay out of range of their opponent's jab.

We've seen it in a number of high profile fights in the UFC, where good wrestlers with good shooting skills get outmatched by strikers who effectively utilize counters.

Mark Coleman had that happen to him a number of times, but the best example in a single fight is Kevin Randleman vs. Chuck Liddell. It's clear almost immediately that shooting isn't as effective in bouts where striking has to be taken into consideration.
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:52 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Sure, but in the UFC, you still see fewer shots over the years. That has a lot to do with guys realizing quickly that they can't cover the same amount of distance when they have to stay out of range of their opponent's jab.

We've seen it in a number of high profile fights in the UFC, where good wrestlers with good shooting skills get outmatched by strikers who effectively utilize counters.

Mark Coleman had that happen to him a number of times, but the best example in a single fight is Kevin Randleman vs. Chuck Liddell. It's clear almost immediately that shooting isn't as effective in bouts where striking has to be taken into consideration.
To tell you the truth I haven't noticed the drop in shooting attempts. It's still the favorite way to close the distance from what I saw. But maybe I wasn't following enough fights to get a full perspective.
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Old 01-26-2010, 11:42 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Yeah Chuck Norris was a pretty accomplished fighter albeit mainly in karate. Jean Claude Van Damme had a pretty impressive fighting career as well until he realized how much money he could make as a movie star.
JCVD is going to compete again. He's taking a K-1 bout latter this year. Who knows, if he does well it isn't inconceivable that he'd try his hand at MMA.
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