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Old 07-05-2010, 10:29 AM   #21 (permalink)
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What is the carni in that video that modified omoplata? How applicable is the wicked gogoplata also with you not controling the arm on the side where you grip? It seems like a really good way to setup an armbar more than anything.

I don't know if I would really consider submissions that operate on the same principles but have slightly different positions and setups as completely new submissions. That is just more of a natural evolution of older moves to me.
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:22 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
Hey, Iron man, I don't understand how do you differentiate the BJJ gogoplata vs kagato jime. If the basic move is the shin choke, does it matter how you grip your opponent? Doing an armbar from your back is different from doing it when in mount but it's still an armbar...
Yeah, I didn't take much time in this last night because there was a lot to say in that post, but (a) kagato jime is not just a shin choke (it's taught often as a blood choke that uses the shin and the wrist) and (b) it matters very much how you grip your opponent because it's going to radically change the angle of the choke, the point of pressure (trachea as opposed to artery) and the posture of your opponent.

A straight armbar is a straight armbar regardless of set-up. We're not talking about set-up. We're talking about the execution of the technique as you finish.

Kagato jime requires a collar grip, it doesn't require controlling the back/neck of your opponent, it doesn't require manipulating posture (as an extension of not controlling the back) and it doesn't require a manipulation of the shoulder that leads to a bend in the elbow (one of the primary features of a gogoplata).

Now, if you execute a BJJ style gogoplata, many judo instructors will look at it and say "wow, that's basically kagato jime." They're wrong.

As I've already said, kagato jime is a blood choke which engages a connection to the gi. The gogoplata is neither of those things. And that's a major technical distinction. It's the difference between okuri eri jime and hadaka jime.


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Originally Posted by osmium View Post
What is the carni in that video that modified omoplata?
The carni operates in a way similar to an omoplata. Again, it's a totally different move. It doesn't require control of the opponent's hip (one of the primary parts of the omoplata) and it doesn't require sitting up and out to finish.

If anything, the carni is closer to what might be called a converted (as opposed to inverted) omoplata. But it's definitely a different technique. You can't just do it on accident from the omoplata.



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How applicable is the wicked gogoplata also with you not controling the arm on the side where you grip? It seems like a really good way to setup an armbar more than anything.
I don't know what you're talking about when you say "the side where you grip." The side where you don't control the arm is not particularly relevant in the application of a wicket gogoplata or a regular gogoplata. The other side, which is the side where you pin the arm to the floor to initiate either the carni, or the omoplata, or the regular gogoplata, or any number of other attacks, still maintains control of the arm.

Can you set up the armbar from a gogoplata? Absolutely. If you turn your hips over and belly-down, you already have the position for an armbar locked up.

Once you have the additional lock in for the wicked gogoplata, though, you give up that mobility with your hips for tighter control of the head and heavier pressure with your calfs. You can't set up an armbar from the position, so I don't know what your talking about.


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I don't know if I would really consider submissions that operate on the same principles but have slightly different positions and setups as completely new submissions. That is just more of a natural evolution of older moves to me.
There's a level of speciation in martial arts. All joint locks operate on similar principles of hyperextension. All chokes operate on similar principles of compression. There are an enormous number of moves (triangle, inverted triangle, darse, anaconda, peruvian necktie) that operate on the same principles but are different moves.

The way in which the body is compressing the opponent is different, the muscles your engaging to finish are different, the limbs are different, the angles are different, etc.

There's a point where saying "it's operating on the same principles, so it's the same move" is kind of irrelevant. The reason we distinguish between moves is (a) so that instructors know that they have to teach each of those individual moves separately (as opposed to simply teaching variations on the triangle) and (b) so that we can see the way that the submissions feed into each other in competition. Often you're switching principles when you're chaining together submissions, but that's beside the point.

The point is this: nami juji-jime and the guillotine choke operate on the same principles. They're different techniques. The engage different muscles, have different grip points, different points of contact and different postures. They don't look the same. The same is true of many of the distinctions we're drawing here.

The carni and the omoplata don't look the same at all. Kagato jime and gogoplata don't look the same. Just because you have a point of contact that's shared, or a shared joint that your attacking, doesn't mean you're using the same technique, or even a variation. They're different techniques.
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:51 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I am saying to get the crush you have to grip the ankle on the side where you don't have an arm isolated(doesn't a normal gogoplata have you griping the ankle coming over the top on the side you have the arm isolated with the leg under their throat). It seems like that would be hard to finish someone who knows what they are doing with because you would just need wrist control to prevent that and if you don't already have it completely sunk in there is a mostly open side where you have a free arm to try and push the foot away from your throat. You would be in a position to get an omoplata or armbar once they clear it however because you still have the other arm isolated.

So my question is are there some nuances about it that I am missing that would prevent this scenario from playing out the majority of the time. Also is it used as a means to setup armbars and omoplatas by forcing you to defend it much like switching between armbars and triangles.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:56 PM   #24 (permalink)
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To tell you the truth, this gogoplata/kagato jime situation reminds me of some throws. There are a lot of throws in judo, but some of them could be described as a mere variation of others. Like tsuri goshi and uki goshi, the only difference is that you grab the belt in the first one, even though you can grab it under and over the opponent's arm. But I guess that there is enough of a difference between gogo and kagato jime to call them different moves.

BTW, Iron Man, have you seen these clips? It's Tsunetane Oda demonstrating Judo ground moves.



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Old 07-05-2010, 04:12 PM   #25 (permalink)
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That's some good technique!
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Old 07-05-2010, 06:39 PM   #26 (permalink)
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What I'd really like to see more in MMA is Jeet Kun Do, Way of the Intercepting Fist, which was developed by Bruce Lee. Its an amazing form, but no one does it. Sigh..
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:37 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Yeah interesting considering that everyone says that Bruce Lee was the father of MMA!
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:39 PM   #28 (permalink)

 
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Yeah interesting considering that everyone says that Bruce Lee was the father of MMA!
For hopefully what will be the last but surely will not Bruce Lee has as much to do with MMA as Steven Segal. Chuck Norris has more to do with MMA than Bruce Lee.
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Old 07-05-2010, 07:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Question Chuck Norris

Are you talking about that World Combat League?
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:39 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by osmium View Post
I am saying to get the crush you have to grip the ankle on the side where you don't have an arm isolated(doesn't a normal gogoplata have you griping the ankle coming over the top on the side you have the arm isolated with the leg under their throat).
The ankle is not a grip point in the gogoplata, in any variation I'm aware of. Ideally, the ankle is under the throat, so you can't reach around and grab it.

The standard grip points are the back of the head and the big toe or foot, reaching around.


Quote:
It seems like that would be hard to finish someone who knows what they are doing with because you would just need wrist control to prevent that and if you don't already have it completely sunk in there is a mostly open side where you have a free arm to try and push the foot away from your throat. You would be in a position to get an omoplata or armbar once they clear it however because you still have the other arm isolated.
O.K. Two points here:

Firstly, they can't control the wrist your using to compress the choke, because the arm on that side is trapped and they're being forced out from the omoplata position, so they can't reach across.

Second, there is always a concern that they'll use the off hand to push down the foot to keep pressure off the throat. Then you transition to the omoplata (the armbar requires a major twist in the hips, and is a little extreme off of that move) or just work a little quicker to lock down the submission, since that grip on the foot is not that strong.


Quote:
So my question is are there some nuances about it that I am missing that would prevent this scenario from playing out the majority of the time. Also is it used as a means to setup armbars and omoplatas by forcing you to defend it much like switching between armbars and triangles.
There are nuances, but that's a different thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
To tell you the truth, this gogoplata/kagato jime situation reminds me of some throws. There are a lot of throws in judo, but some of them could be described as a mere variation of others. Like tsuri goshi and uki goshi, the only difference is that you grab the belt in the first one, even though you can grab it under and over the opponent's arm. But I guess that there is enough of a difference between gogo and kagato jime to call them different moves.
I certainly think so.

Quote:
BTW, Iron Man, have you seen these clips? It's Tsunetane Oda demonstrating Judo ground moves.
No, but they're very good, despite the iffy video quality.
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