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Old 07-14-2010, 04:17 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Bobby... you are still being an elitist. MMA is a martial art. It is. It is a martial art as much as jiujitsu is. Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is whatever works. Sounds a lot like mma to me.

Why is someone specialized in one thing more respectable in your eyes than someone who mastered multiple disciplines? It doesn't make any sense. There is no perfection in any martial art. Training in martial arts is a constant search for perfection but there is no end to it. You don't reach a certain point in Judo and relax because you have perfected it. You don't do that with Muay Thai, Karate, Kung Fu, Jiujitsu, or any other martial art in existence.

To me mixed martial arts is the epitome of martial arts. It is taking 2000+ years of training and seeing what actually works. Thus the extraneous bits begin to flake away and we get a martial art that is effective. The purest form of hand to hand combat and - as more people train in it - we get to see the real differences between fighters. It will be two men with access to the samea training proving which of them has the stronger mind in the ring. Proving who has trained harder. Proving who deserves to be a champion.

If you don't like that this is not the sport for you. Fighting isn't about philosophy. It's about fighting. It's about stepping into the eye of the storm and coming out with your head held high. Your beliefs that it is not an art are superfluous. It will not change that it is. It will not change what is coming.

If you don't want to watch the evolution of hand to hand combat then don't. Go practice one of your "respectable" arts and let the rest of us enjoy.

And, just to let you know, I come from that old school background. I have a black belt in both Judo and Tae Kwon Do as well as a blue belt in Shotokan Karate. I'm not someone trained at one of these barbaric gyms.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
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the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.
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Old 07-14-2010, 04:37 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.
Quoted for truth.
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by deadmanshand View Post
Bobby... you are still being an elitist. MMA is a martial art. It is. It is a martial art as much as jiujitsu is. Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is whatever works. Sounds a lot like mma to me.

Why is someone specialized in one thing more respectable in your eyes than someone who mastered multiple disciplines? It doesn't make any sense. There is no perfection in any martial art. Training in martial arts is a constant search for perfection but there is no end to it. You don't reach a certain point in Judo and relax because you have perfected it. You don't do that with Muay Thai, Karate, Kung Fu, Jiujitsu, or any other martial art in existence.

To me mixed martial arts is the epitome of martial arts. It is taking 2000+ years of training and seeing what actually works. Thus the extraneous bits begin to flake away and we get a martial art that is effective. The purest form of hand to hand combat and - as more people train in it - we get to see the real differences between fighters. It will be two men with access to the samea training proving which of them has the stronger mind in the ring. Proving who has trained harder. Proving who deserves to be a champion.

If you don't like that this is not the sport for you. Fighting isn't about philosophy. It's about fighting. It's about stepping into the eye of the storm and coming out with your head held high. Your beliefs that it is not an art are superfluous. It will not change that it is. It will not change what is coming.

If you don't want to watch the evolution of hand to hand combat then don't. Go practice one of your "respectable" arts and let the rest of us enjoy.

And, just to let you know, I come from that old school background. I have a black belt in both Judo and Tae Kwon Do as well as a blue belt in Shotokan Karate. I'm not someone trained at one of these barbaric gyms.
Ok my friend, I understand your point about MMA being a Martial Art. But I still can not agree with that thoroughly. We can call it a art of fighting. But a Martial Art.. I to not have the heart to call it that!

But back to the topic now

That you can never master a Martial Art is very true from you. Very true!

But don't you think something will be lost?? That the actual Sport will change forever? That the beauty of the sport will leave us?? What makes MMA great for you??

Isn't this a sad thought for you??

Don't you think it's part of the Sport?

All those different kind of backgrounds wich make a fighter so unbeliavble unique to us will just die out forever.. cause every single fighter will just be another dude who came out of those babaric MMA gyms. Everybody will be a boring MMA fighter who probably trained only Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling..WOW to become THE MMA CHAMP! Does this really not bother you at all?? Isn't that why we are watching this Sport? And why this Sport is so great compared to all those others combat sports like K-1 or Boxing?

For me this thought just ruins everything.. and I really don't know how I can get over that. I really really hope this evolution of the Sport takes as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.
Thats very true. But you missunderstood me here! I was saying that the traditional Martial Art would have no place in MMA anymore. It of course will still exsist everywhere.. but also in this combat Sport?? Or will we never see a guy like Maia making the transition to MMA anymore?? just because they can not keep up with those guys who train at those MMA gyms from an early age.

Will the beauty of the Sport die forever??
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:07 PM   #15 (permalink)
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The thought doesn't sadden me at all. New styles will replace the old. New strategies will come to the fore. Fighters will continue to use their strengths to win.

Style versus style holds little appeal for me. I much prefer complete fighters facing each other. That is when I get excited. People who excel at one thing and one thing only just get no reaction from me.

For example I can't bring myself to be a Maia fan. Sure he has had some really nice submission finishes but that's his only real way of winning. All you have to do to beat him is keep it at range and out strike him. It makes - for me - a boring fighter.

I like it when the fighter is dangerous everywhere because that is when it becomes a tactical battle. True strategy. That is when you see who the better fighter is. That is the beauty of mma to me.

As for "barbaric" mma gyms... I just don't see why you think they are barbaric. There is something beautiful - to my eyes - about people from different disciplines gathering in one place to share their knowledge. Pool their talents to create something new. That's art.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:03 PM   #16 (permalink)
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For the most part, I found this thread ridiculous. There were a few soundbites that are just too irritating to ignore, though.

Those are below.


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Originally Posted by BobbyCooper View Post
..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.
Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?

Seriously?

Are the best fighters in the world slowly becoming less dependent on their backgrounds? Is Brock Lesnar using less wrestling than Dan Severn did? Is Anderson Silva less muay thai intensive than Pedro Rizzo? No.

The fighters are getting better at other areas of the game as well, but the vast majority of successful fighters have a background that they utilize with regularity. They're not homogenizing so much as rounding themselves out, and there's a difference between those two things: they are not sacrificing the skills of their preliminary backgrounds in order to be somewhat competitive in other areas of the fight game.


Quote:
I even see myself stop watching this Sport. If all I need to know is, that the MMA guy fights the MMA guy.. two dudes who call MMA there Martial Art. Isn't that a sad thought, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction?!
Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no support for this claim, the pettiness that you would stop watching the sport because there were less stylistically diverse matchups is pretty bizarre.

Props for giving me a complaint I'd never heard before.


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Originally Posted by deadmanshand View Post
Wow... how elitist. So if they don't come from a "legitimate" amrtial arts background they are just some thug from a "barbaric" mma gym? This train of thought is just stupid.
I agree with the "stupid" part. I hate the term elitist.

Every time I hear it, I wonder what the f*ck that means. Really, the word you want to use is "pretentious." Firstly, it's actually an adjective. Secondly, (and more importantly) it actually says something, other than attempting to alienate the person on the basis of having different tastes.


Quote:
What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art.
This annoys me.

MMA is not a martial art, because MMA is not a system. The term "martial art" implies systemization, it implies cogency of techniques and similarity of styles between academies.

There is no "style of MMA." There is no homogenized way of viewing the techniques of mixed martial arts. There are a dozen substantial, well known instructors (Greg Jackson, Pat Miletich, Ricardo Liborio, Renzo Gracie, Mark Dellagrotte, etc.) who all have different "styles" of mixed martial arts.

MMA is a form of competition. You can argue that the systems that these guys are pioneering are martial arts. You can't argue that MMA is, because MMA is so much bigger than any single curriculum or systemization.

BJJ, Judo, Karate, etc. are all "styles" insofar as they emerge from a systemization of techniques and philosophies. MMA is different. It's an open forum with no instructors attempting to reduce the techniques to the most efficient and technically sound in the way that the kodokan or the Gracies did/do.


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Originally Posted by BobbyCooper View Post
I don't call it a Martial Art, because there is no such thing as perfection in MMA.
And there's a "perfection" in BJJ? Or judo? Or wrestling?

I'm just going to stick to the styles that I study, but I'll say this: there is no perfect. There is what's good and there's what works.

There's mastery. But there's no perfection. It's a dead concept. Let it go.


Quote:
nobody will try or bother anymore to demonstrate his background as guys like Lyoto, Shinya, Silva or Akiyama. They will just be MMA fighters who learned everything at ones.. but without a background.
I don't see that at all. I have guys who are looking to start training come to me for advice all the time, and the thing that they hear from me, and from guys much more experienced, and smarter, than I am is this: find a style that compliments your body type, where you're comfortable and how you want to fight and start there.

That's how you build a successful fighting style. Not: "I'm going to keep all of my skills rounded out and then take the fight wherever I have to in order to win." That doesn't work.


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Originally Posted by deadmanshand View Post
Bobby... you are still being an elitist. MMA is a martial art. It is. It is a martial art as much as jiujitsu is. Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is whatever works. Sounds a lot like mma to me.
This comment drove me to post. It's so grating to hear someone say: "Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is..."

I've been training jiu-jitsu most of my life. I've dedicated hours of sweat and blood and to hear a fortune cookie as what jiu-jitsu is all about is irritating. No one agrees about the philosophy of jiu-jitsu is.

The philosophy of any sport is "whatever works." In the same way the philosophy of any sport is "win the damn game."

Every coach has a different philosophy. Helio's from what I've read and gathered from his students was "use leverage, be crafty and catch him when he's getting aggressive." That doesn't work for everybody. It works for me, but my coach prefers: "Rack him up, drop your weight and make him squirm until you catch him."

There is no fortune cookie. Have a little more respect for the style than that.

I don't mind you taking the guy to task for being stupid, but either show some respect for the complexity of a martial art or don't comment on it. It's really irritating to hear the McNuggets dropped like that.


Quote:
And, just to let you know, I come from that old school background. I have a black belt in both Judo and Tae Kwon Do as well as a blue belt in Shotokan Karate. I'm not someone trained at one of these barbaric gyms.
Great. It's nice to have martial artists on the board. And I don't mind the commentary, but I noticed that "jiu-jitsu" isn't included in that background, which annoyed me further.

You're going to comment on the philosophy of a martial art you don't train in, when there are martial arts you can reference with some degree of credibility? That makes no sense.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HexRei View Post
the old discplines will never die out because they are arts or sports in their own right. many people who practice them arent very interested in MMA at all, and I don't see any real reason that will change.
This was a golden ray of sunshine in a bleak and irritating thread. I certainly agree with it, and though I really think it's worth noting that fighters come to MMA with a variety of backgrounds in those styles, and that trend doesn't seem to be changing at all, I don't mind just pointing out that the traditional martial arts seem to be doing just fine.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art.
This annoys me.
Quote:
MMA is not a martial art, because MMA is not a system. The term "martial art" implies systemization, it implies cogency of techniques and similarity of styles between academies.
MMA itself might not be a Martial Art on your definition, but new Hybrid-Systems are being born, sure, they are not big enough yet to spread in similiarties between academies, but as the sport continues to evolve i'm pretty sure some of the fighters/trainers will reach a point of influence where they will have created and spread their signature MMA Systems, altough it will probably take a few generations and some pioneers.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chileandude View Post
MMA itself might not be a Martial Art on your definition, but new Hybrid-Systems are being born, sure, they are not big enough yet to spread in similiarties between academies, but as the sport continues to evolve i'm pretty sure some of the fighters/trainers will reach a point of influence where they will have created and spread their signature MMA Systems, altough it will probably take a few generations and some pioneers.
I don't have a problem with anything you said. Of course there are hybrid systems showing up. But there's no "MMA system."
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I only posted a few of the martial arts I have trained significantly in. Judo, TKD, and Shotokan are simply where I started twenty years ago. Since then there has been Aikido, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kenpo, Wrestling, Kendo, and BJJ. Whatever works is the philosophy of BJJ as I was taught it. If you have a different interpretation so be it but don't yell at me because you don't like mine. You can take it up with my teacher if that's what you want to do.

Elitist is actually used as an adjective these days. You might not like it but it is. SO you know exactly what I meant when I said it but pretentious would be correct as well. Your tone towards me would also count as pretentious.

And you and I may have different ideas about whether MMA is the birth of a new martial art or not but your opinion holds no more weight than mine. If you don't agree say it but you cannot conclusively prove that it isn't because it is a matter of perspective not fact. I believe mma is heading towards a systemized form of training. It's the only logical evolution from my point of view.
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:19 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I only posted a few of the martial arts I have trained significantly in. Judo, TKD, and Shotokan are simply where I started twenty years ago. Since then there has been Aikido, Muay Thai, Boxing, Kenpo, Wrestling, Kendo, and BJJ. Whatever works is the philosophy of BJJ as I was taught it. If you have a different interpretation so be it but don't yell at me because you don't like mine. You can take it up with my teacher if that's what you want to do.
Then you should've qualified your background fully.

Here's my issue: "Whatever works" isn't a philosophy. It's a platitude.

You can say it about basketball, football, hockey, academics, chess, cross-country skiing and whatever else you want. It doesn't say anything.


Quote:
Elitist is actually used as an adjective these days. You might not like it but it is. SO you know exactly what I meant when I said it but pretentious would be correct as well. Your tone towards me would also count as pretentious.
I'll say this, you weren't the only person who used the word "elitist." Just the usage in the post I quoted. Of course it's used as an adjective in contemporary culture. And in contemporary culture, it's similarly useless and unexpressive. I'm taking a little frustration with the culture out on you, which may be a little unfair, but it happens.

My attitude towards you is disdainful. Pretentiousness implies that I'm exaggerating my own importance or making some sort of unjustified claim. I'm not doing either of those things.


Quote:
And you and I may have different ideas about whether MMA is the birth of a new martial art or not but your opinion holds no more weight than mine. If you don't agree say it but you cannot conclusively prove that it isn't because it is a matter of perspective not fact.
Yay! The relativism defense!

I haven't seen that one in a while.

Seriously? Yes, you're entitled to your opinion. I'm also entitled to point out that you're position is incoherent.


Quote:
I believe mma is heading towards a systemized form of training. It's the only logical evolution from my point of view.
It's going to become systemized? How?

Are Greg Jackson and Ricardo Liborio and the rest going to get together at a summit and agree that there are some moves, with particular execution, and that there is a structured methodology for teaching them? Because that's the function of systemization that we're talking about when we talk about "martial arts styles."

That's what Kano did when he created judo. That's what Helio and Carlson Jr. did when they were creating what would become Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. As those things became sports, they shifted away from being a single system. With a public forum for the exchange and testing of techniques, the executions of techniques and the teaching methodologies tend to get more diverse, not less so.

It's hard to argue that the techniques in MMA have gotten more diverse because it started with incredible diversity, so I won't bother with that. But they certainly haven't gotten more homogenous, they're just more sophisticated and more defined in their connections to the styles from which they originate.
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