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Old 07-15-2010, 09:01 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Thumbs up One way to ruin a thread

Seriously IronMan. Did you really not get the topic at all??? I mean Toxic, Chilendude, Osmium and deadmanshand got it immediately.

This thread isn't about "IS MMA A MARTIAL ART OR NOT"... it's about the evolution of the sport of MMA. How will this Sport look like in 20 years from now. not how does it look like today.. or anyhting like that. Most of your respond was more irritating then the enitre thread so far.

I try to make it as simple as possible now..

I am talking about the Evolution of MMA! The Evolution of Cage fighting

Will we ever see a Demian Maia again in 20 years from now?? Will we ever see a high top Level Judoka who had to spend his entire childhood in a Judo Dojo, just to win Gold someday, making his way into MMA again in 20 years?? Will we ever see an ALL american Wrestler or an ADCC Submission Wrestling Champion making the transition into MMA again in 20 years from now???

Don't you think that these guys will have too much of an disadvantage over the guys who start training as a little child, in those "babaric MMA gyms" ( A expression I was using to express my feelings about those gyms and to get people in here who already train this by many already called "Martial Art" )

Isn't that a sad thought, that we will probably never see such a high level grappler like Demian Maia or Shinya Aoki in MMA ever again??

Because everybody who grows up today, will see Anderson Silva fighting in this cage. And the little boy will think.. wow Daddy, I would like to be an MMA fighter one day. Do you really believe, that this little boy will still sacrifice himself to learn a TRUE Martial Art like Karate, BJJ or Judo in his childhood?? If he already has the option to become an MMA fighter in those "babaric MMA gyms"???

Don't you think he will choose the obvious way?? And join an MMA gym instead of a BJJ school??

Don't you think a guy like Demian Maia would have no time anymore, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA?! After his so successful Grappling career??

Don't you think this era of fighter will die out?? And the future of the sport will be guys who call there background ONLY Mixed MArtial Arts anymore??? Don't you think that we will never see a guy like Akiyama or Nakamura anymore, who just jumped into MMA with there outstanding Judo background? These two guys would have no time left anymore to keep up with those little kids, who only ever trained in those babaric MMA gyms..

Little boys who see Anderson Silva and because of that join an MMA gym only and only develope Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling.. doesn't that thought make you sad, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction??

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
For the most part, I found this thread ridiculous. There were a few soundbites that are just too irritating to ignore, though.

Those are below.




Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?

Seriously?

Are the best fighters in the world slowly becoming less dependent on their backgrounds? Is Brock Lesnar using less wrestling than Dan Severn did? Is Anderson Silva less muay thai intensive than Pedro Rizzo? No.

The fighters are getting better at other areas of the game as well, but the vast majority of successful fighters have a background that they utilize with regularity. They're not homogenizing so much as rounding themselves out, and there's a difference between those two things: they are not sacrificing the skills of their preliminary backgrounds in order to be somewhat competitive in other areas of the fight game.




Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no support for this claim, the pettiness that you would stop watching the sport because there were less stylistically diverse matchups is pretty bizarre.

Props for giving me a complaint I'd never heard before.




I agree with the "stupid" part. I hate the term elitist.

Every time I hear it, I wonder what the f*ck that means. Really, the word you want to use is "pretentious." Firstly, it's actually an adjective. Secondly, (and more importantly) it actually says something, other than attempting to alienate the person on the basis of having different tastes.




This annoys me.

MMA is not a martial art, because MMA is not a system. The term "martial art" implies systemization, it implies cogency of techniques and similarity of styles between academies.

There is no "style of MMA." There is no homogenized way of viewing the techniques of mixed martial arts. There are a dozen substantial, well known instructors (Greg Jackson, Pat Miletich, Ricardo Liborio, Renzo Gracie, Mark Dellagrotte, etc.) who all have different "styles" of mixed martial arts.

MMA is a form of competition. You can argue that the systems that these guys are pioneering are martial arts. You can't argue that MMA is, because MMA is so much bigger than any single curriculum or systemization.

BJJ, Judo, Karate, etc. are all "styles" insofar as they emerge from a systemization of techniques and philosophies. MMA is different. It's an open forum with no instructors attempting to reduce the techniques to the most efficient and technically sound in the way that the kodokan or the Gracies did/do.




And there's a "perfection" in BJJ? Or judo? Or wrestling?

I'm just going to stick to the styles that I study, but I'll say this: there is no perfect. There is what's good and there's what works.

There's mastery. But there's no perfection. It's a dead concept. Let it go.




I don't see that at all. I have guys who are looking to start training come to me for advice all the time, and the thing that they hear from me, and from guys much more experienced, and smarter, than I am is this: find a style that compliments your body type, where you're comfortable and how you want to fight and start there.

That's how you build a successful fighting style. Not: "I'm going to keep all of my skills rounded out and then take the fight wherever I have to in order to win." That doesn't work.




This comment drove me to post. It's so grating to hear someone say: "Jiujitsu's actual philosophy is..."

I've been training jiu-jitsu most of my life. I've dedicated hours of sweat and blood and to hear a fortune cookie as what jiu-jitsu is all about is irritating. No one agrees about the philosophy of jiu-jitsu is.

The philosophy of any sport is "whatever works." In the same way the philosophy of any sport is "win the damn game."

Every coach has a different philosophy. Helio's from what I've read and gathered from his students was "use leverage, be crafty and catch him when he's getting aggressive." That doesn't work for everybody. It works for me, but my coach prefers: "Rack him up, drop your weight and make him squirm until you catch him."

There is no fortune cookie. Have a little more respect for the style than that.

I don't mind you taking the guy to task for being stupid, but either show some respect for the complexity of a martial art or don't comment on it. It's really irritating to hear the McNuggets dropped like that.




Great. It's nice to have martial artists on the board. And I don't mind the commentary, but I noticed that "jiu-jitsu" isn't included in that background, which annoyed me further.

You're going to comment on the philosophy of a martial art you don't train in, when there are martial arts you can reference with some degree of credibility? That makes no sense.




This was a golden ray of sunshine in a bleak and irritating thread. I certainly agree with it, and though I really think it's worth noting that fighters come to MMA with a variety of backgrounds in those styles, and that trend doesn't seem to be changing at all, I don't mind just pointing out that the traditional martial arts seem to be doing just fine.
You are wrong! That what HexRai posted, was completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Of course the traditional Martial will always exsist. Who ever questioned that?? But will we ever witness guys again, like Akiyama, Shinya Aoki or Demian Maia?? Who just spend there entire life on there MArtial Art to become the best at it?? Will these guys ever have enough time left to addapt some form of striking, to comepete against guys who only ever learned a fighting style, to compete in a Cage for the Fame and the Money?

Of course these kids will learn BJJ, Muay Thai and Wrestling to become great MMA fighters in those babaric MMA gyms. But isn't this a sad sad thought about the future of the Sport? Wich should kill you inside???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
Joe Rogan was talking about this during the Carlos Condit/Rory McDonald fight about how Rory was one of the first guys who started young training in MMA from a blank slate rather than transitioning from traditional martial arts, boxing or wrestling.
Here IronMan, does are the guys I am talking about. Rory McDonald. Is this really the future of this Sport??

If it really is, then yes.. I see myself stop watching it!
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:06 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Its the inevitable evolution and our time will fade into something else. This is exactly how the purists of anything feel about the incombents who want to change what they have become comfortable with for long periods of time. Nostalgia and fear of change are what hold us in the past.
Pride had to die, the UFC had to adopt rules/weight classes and Lindsey Lohan had to finally go to jail. Its all sad in a way but cathartic none the less.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:28 AM   #33 (permalink)
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I've never gone to an mma gym and not focused on either JJ or MT individually, with a separate coach too. So if it were to carry a stigma for being an "MMA" school, I would be offended because it's just a way for all of our coaches to save money on rent and supplies...

Since we already know now that a martial art can not be perfected in an entire lifetime, I can skip that part and try to be realistic (in a hurry).

Here is what I would do:
Look back 100 years, what martial arts could you go practice as a child do you think? If you live in asia, you might be lucky. (Although I wouldn't call that lifestyle 100 years ago lucky) If you are from Europe or young North America, you MIGHT get to box a LITTLE bit, MAYBE wrestle but you probably won't want to because your day-to-day work is so hard, and the lack of money for food leaves you with little energy to train.

Fast forward 100 years to the present. ENJOY martial arts and a long life. Don't get so aggrivated over some idea in your head like this, because you are probably one of the only people in the world aside from karate gym owners worried about this happening!

We still have the olympics, and people from every corner of the world will continue to go there and be the best athletes on the planet at their individual arts. I don't see how anything could change much from the way it is right now except that the athletes will be faster, stronger, more technical, and more natural with their fighting in MMA.

I definitely wouldn't say you are being elitist or anything, but this sounds similar to when Boxers argue that boxing is better than MMA, and even if MMA suceeds boxing will have always been better. When in reality because it is the new thing, and involves more, they get somewhat defensively offensive about the issue.

The world is a big place, and there are more places to learn individual martial arts than there were 50,40,30,20,10,5 years ago. It will probably continue, too! Chin up Bobs! there is nothing to worry about here CALM THE **** DOWN
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:39 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyCooper View Post
Seriously IronMan. Did you really not get the topic at all??? I mean Toxic, Chilendude, Osmium and deadmanshand got it immediately.
As I said in my post, it wasn't the topic that led me to post, but rather the series of bizarre/inane comments that followed.

Frankly, I think your position on the issue is totally ridiculous, but since you want me to explain why that is, I'll requote the first section of my post, in which I dealt with the original post on the thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?

Seriously?

Are the best fighters in the world slowly becoming less dependent on their backgrounds? Is Brock Lesnar using less wrestling than Dan Severn did? Is Anderson Silva less muay thai intensive than Pedro Rizzo? No.

The fighters are getting better at other areas of the game as well, but the vast majority of successful fighters have a background that they utilize with regularity. They're not homogenizing so much as rounding themselves out, and there's a difference between those two things: they are not sacrificing the skills of their preliminary backgrounds in order to be somewhat competitive in other areas of the fight game.

Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no support for this claim, the pettiness that you would stop watching the sport because there were less stylistically diverse matchups is pretty bizarre.

Props for giving me a complaint I'd never heard before.
So, yes. I read the original post. I even responded to it. All of this feels a little redundant now, but I have the day off, so whatever.

Quote:
Will we ever see a Demian Maia again in 20 years from now?? Will we ever see a high top Level Judoka who had to spend his entire childhood in a Judo Dojo, just to win Gold someday, making his way into MMA again in 20 years?? Will we ever see an ALL american Wrestler or an ADCC Submission Wrestling Champion making the transition into MMA again in 20 years from now???
I have no clue what's making you think that these guys are becoming less common in MMA. In fact, if you look at the top ten of each division, pretty much everybody out there started in a single style and then transitioned to MMA.

Quote:
Don't you think that these guys will have too much of an disadvantage over the guys who start training as a little child, in those "babaric MMA gyms" ( A expression I was using to express my feelings about those gyms and to get people in here who already train this by many already called "Martial Art" )

Isn't that a sad thought, that we will probably never see such a high level grappler like Demian Maia or Shinya Aoki in MMA ever again??
Again, you're making it sound like Demian Maia and Shinya Aoki aren't top ten fighters.

How many guys in the top ten right now started training MMA with no prior background in a single style? I can't even think of one.

Again, if this is going to ever be a trend (which I don't think it will) it certainly hasn't shown itself in the sport. Your entire argument is speculative.


Quote:
Because everybody who grows up today, will see Anderson Silva fighting in this cage. And the little boy will think.. wow Daddy, I would like to be an MMA fighter one day. Do you really believe, that this little boy will still sacrifice himself to learn a TRUE Martial Art like Karate, BJJ or Judo in his childhood?? If he already has the option to become an MMA fighter in those "babaric MMA gyms"???
Probably not karate. But BJJ? Yes. Muay thai? Yes. Wrestling? Yes.

I train kids. I see kids who want to be the next Anderson Silva all the time. Frankly, I came to martial arts after watching those middle tier UFC events (late 30s on) and started training BJJ, and muay thai, and Greco-Roman wrestling.


Quote:
Don't you think he will choose the obvious way?? And join an MMA gym instead of a BJJ school??
Frankly, I think that once people look at the sport, they realize that a good base in BJJ isn't going to come at an MMA school. Neither is a good base in wrestling. They will find academies where they can learn those things.

Even professional fighters have discovered that just having an "MMA coach" is insufficient. Brock Lesnar brought Comprido in to train with him. He didn't just work with whatever guys Minnesota Martial Arts had teaching "MMA."

I've been in a lot of "MMA gyms," and it seems pretty apparent to the guys who take their training seriously that learning other styles, putting the gi on or lacing up 12 ounce gloves, is important to developing a technically sound game. There are fighters who don't get that, but the ones who do are the ones who are going to be good.


Quote:
Don't you think a guy like Demian Maia would have no time anymore, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA?! After his so successful Grappling career??
I think Demian Maia's training regimen didn't change that much in transitioning to MMA. I'm not worried we're going to see fewer top tier grapplers in MMA over the next ten to fifteen years. Apart from the facts that the number of world class grapplers we've seen has increased over the last five, that there's more money in MMA and that a grappling base can still win a lot of fights, traditional BJJ practitioners believe that they have a roll to play in MMA, even as the sport changes.

Quote:
Don't you think this era of fighter will die out?? And the future of the sport will be guys who call there background ONLY Mixed MArtial Arts anymore??? Don't you think that we will never see a guy like Akiyama or Nakamura anymore, who just jumped into MMA with there outstanding Judo background? These two guys would have no time left anymore to keep up with those little kids, who only ever trained in those babaric MMA gyms..
I don't know that we'll ever see a substantial contingent of judo guys in the top ten.

But my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with competitors like Akiyama or Nakamura disappearing, because their not. We've seen Dream and Sengoku sign a couple of very high level judo practitioners over the last year, and I can say just from personal experience that the level of interest in MMA in the judo community is growing, not diminishing.

The reason I think we won't ever have a substantial judo contingent in the top ten is that I think the absence of the gi severely limits judo competitors in MMA, and that limitation means judo players have to spend more time transitioning than they really have.

Also, the fighters who compete in judo don't even think about transitioning sports until later in their career. These aren't kids who are going to train at an MMA academy instead. If anything, you have to worry about the Japanese wrestlers doing that. The judo tradition in Japan is so strong that I can't believe it would be substantially diminished by kids deciding they want to do MMA.


Quote:
Little boys who see Anderson Silva and because of that join an MMA gym only and only develope Muay Thai, BJJ and Wrestling.. doesn't that thought make you sad, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction??
Again, I see no reason to believe that will happen.

Quote:
You are wrong! That what HexRai posted, was completely irrelevant to the discussion.
No, it wasn't. It just ignored your post, which I have no problem with.

Quote:
Of course the traditional Martial will always exsist. Who ever questioned that?? But will we ever witness guys again, like Akiyama, Shinya Aoki or Demian Maia?? Who just spend there entire life on there MArtial Art to become the best at it?? Will these guys ever have enough time left to addapt some form of striking, to comepete against guys who only ever learned a fighting style, to compete in a Cage for the Fame and the Money?
Sure. The money in MMA is good enough, and there will continue to be good grapplers who look over at MMA and say "I can do that."

We've seen more of those guys over the last five years than we have at any point in the history of the sport prior. We've seen it coming from wrestling. We've seen it coming from BJJ and Abu Dhabi.


Quote:
Here IronMan, does are the guys I am talking about. Rory McDonald. Is this really the future of this Sport??
Again, I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

Anyone who thinks that Rory Macdonald represents a significant change in the face of MMA should be equally convinced that Luke Cummo was going to make JKD a formidable fighting style in MMA.

Look at the top ten. How many of those guys started training the way Rory did? None of them.

In fact, the number of guys who came from strictly "MMA/toughman" backgrounds has decreased in the top ten since the days of the old UFC. Before, we actually had guys who didn't have a single style background.

Contemporary fighters are more dependent on a background in a single style to be effective and, just to be clear, the kids who are starting training now, who represent the next generation of fighters, know that.

There are meathead adults who think that they can become MMA fighters by going to an MMA class and doing circuits and learning basic techniques. Those guys (by virtue of that poor approach to training) will never take over the sport.

I think there's no reason to believe that the sport will ever take the road you're talking about. There's no indication that its on that road now.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:41 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Thank you for those great replys IronMan and SJ!

Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Frankly, I think your position on the issue is totally ridiculous, but since you want me to explain why that is, I'll requote the first section of my post, in which I dealt with the original post on the thread:

So, yes. I read the original post. I even responded to it. All of this feels a little redundant now, but I have the day off, so whatever.
Sorry for that IronMan. Your reply is great and I am happy to answer.

Quote:
Apart from the loaded term "barbaric MMA gym," which is unbelievably irritating, what in hell makes you think that there is going to be a trend away from traditional martial arts?

Seriously?

Are the best fighters in the world slowly becoming less dependent on their backgrounds? Is Brock Lesnar using less wrestling than Dan Severn did? Is Anderson Silva less muay thai intensive than Pedro Rizzo? No.

The fighters are getting better at other areas of the game as well, but the vast majority of successful fighters have a background that they utilize with regularity. They're not homogenizing so much as rounding themselves out, and there's a difference between those two things: they are not sacrificing the skills of their preliminary backgrounds in order to be somewhat competitive in other areas of the fight game.

Apart from the fact that there is absolutely no support for this claim, the pettiness that you would stop watching the sport because there were less stylistically diverse matchups is pretty bizarre.

Props for giving me a complaint I'd never heard before.
The reason for that is, that the time isn't there yet. Brock still was able to make the transition into the Sport of MMA.. even though he wasn't able to develope any kind of striking game so far.

The time to this is still there. Brock is still a guy from this time. As was Dan Severn back then! Dan's and Brock's Wrestling background allowed them to make the transition to MMA.

But this is today! What about in 20 years?? Will an ALL american Wrestler still be able to make the transition into this sport?? I don't believe he can! Same goes for every other MArtial Artist out there. Thats why I always mention Damien Maia in here.. does he really have enough time left?

I don't believe that these guys have enough time left then, to actually develope an at least decent striking game or BJJ game to compete against guys from the new Generation of today.. who started already in an MMA gym. And learned everything together, cause they knew they wanted to become an MMA Fighter someday. But a guy like Brock didn't know that he would rather do this then Pro Wrestling later. He only focused on his Wrestling career at College.

I doupt that he or any other Martial Artist out there, could still keep up with the guys who already learn to compete as an MMA fighter right from the early age. Just for a Sport in a Cage! Guys like Rory McDonald..

Don't you see, that a guy like Rory McDonald, a guy who has such a bright future ahaead of him will rule this Sport and are the next generation of MMA??

These guys do nothing else then to train for this particular Sport. Right from the beginning. They have no background anymore. All the beauty of this Sport will leave us just like that. And everybody will be just that.. an MMA fighter with the dicipline MMA.

Quote:
I have no clue what's making you think that these guys are becoming less common in MMA. In fact, if you look at the top ten of each division, pretty much everybody out there started in a single style and then transitioned to MMA.
This is very true! But again, you are talking about today. You are talking about this century. This is also the Golden Age of MMA for me. This is the most beautiful time of the entire Sport right now in my eyes.

Like I said above.. what is in 20 years from now?? Do you again seriously believe, that a guy like Brock, Demian or any top Level Judoka could still make the transition and step into this Cage?? Against guys who did nothing else then train for this Cage fighting??

Guys like Rory McDonald are the ones!

Quote:
Again, you're making it sound like Demian Maia and Shinya Aoki aren't top ten fighters.

How many guys in the top ten right now started training MMA with no prior background in a single style? I can't even think of one.

Again, if this is going to ever be a trend (which I don't think it will) it certainly hasn't shown itself in the sport. Your entire argument is speculative.
Of course, not yet! This is the beautiful time of this Sport. But what about in 20 years?? MMA gyms just started to grow and are getting more and more popular. Guys like Rory McDenold are the new generation in my eyes. Guys without a singe background.. just MMA for the Cage. Just training for this Sport!

Guys like Lyoto, Demian, Shinya.. who make this sport so beautiful will just die out?!

Quote:
Probably not karate. But BJJ? Yes. Muay thai? Yes. Wrestling? Yes.

I train kids. I see kids who want to be the next Anderson Silva all the time. Frankly, I came to martial arts after watching those middle tier UFC events (late 30s on) and started training BJJ, and muay thai, and Greco-Roman wrestling.
Exactly thats what I am talking about! These guys will not even bother anymore to become one of the best in that particular Martial Art. they just want to fight in that Cage someday.. thats why they train MMA insted of only BJJ or Wrestling. Thats the sad Generation of the Sport I am speaking off.

Do you want me to tell you how the Fighter in 20 years looks like??

I tell ya, he is a combination of Muay Thai (Kickboxing), BJJ and Wrestling.. Thats it! Thats the sad new Generation of fighter. Guys like Rory McDonald..

do you really don't see this Sport heading into this direction?

Quote:
Frankly, I think that once people look at the sport, they realize that a good base in BJJ isn't going to come at an MMA school. Neither is a good base in wrestling. They will find academies where they can learn those things.

Even professional fighters have discovered that just having an "MMA coach" is insufficient. Brock Lesnar brought Comprido in to train with him. He didn't just work with whatever guys Minnesota Martial Arts had teaching "MMA."

I've been in a lot of "MMA gyms," and it seems pretty apparent to the guys who take their training seriously that learning other styles, putting the gi on or lacing up 12 ounce gloves, is important to developing a technically sound game. There are fighters who don't get that, but the ones who do are the ones who are going to be good.
I never questioned that. And I think thats very true what you are saying here. But thats exactly the thing I am worried about. They will pick up everything from all those Martial Arts. And they will probably become great MMA fighter who can use there training then nobody else. But do really look forward to this generation?? nobody becomes really great at one thing? But good at everything?? For the sport and the Cage.

I still want to enjoy guys like Shinya, Nakamura, Yoshida, Lyoto.. who really gave there all, to become great at there Martial Art. And that doesn't work here anymore.. guys who train everything at ones will never be known as the ADCC World Submission Champion.. they will just be that an MMA fighter.

Quote:
I think Demian Maia's training regimen didn't change that much in transitioning to MMA. I'm not worried we're going to see fewer top tier grapplers in MMA over the next ten to fifteen years. Apart from the facts that the number of world class grapplers we've seen has increased over the last five, that there's more money in MMA and that a grappling base can still win a lot of fights, traditional BJJ practitioners believe that they have a roll to play in MMA, even as the sport changes.
I hope you are so right with this!

Quote:
I don't know that we'll ever see a substantial contingent of judo guys in the top ten.

But my reasons for thinking that have nothing to do with competitors like Akiyama or Nakamura disappearing, because their not. We've seen Dream and Sengoku sign a couple of very high level judo practitioners over the last year, and I can say just from personal experience that the level of interest in MMA in the judo community is growing, not diminishing.

The reason I think we won't ever have a substantial judo contingent in the top ten is that I think the absence of the gi severely limits judo competitors in MMA, and that limitation means judo players have to spend more time transitioning than they really have.

Also, the fighters who compete in judo don't even think about transitioning sports until later in their career. These aren't kids who are going to train at an MMA academy instead. If anything, you have to worry about the Japanese wrestlers doing that. The judo tradition in Japan is so strong that I can't believe it would be substantially diminished by kids deciding they want to do MMA.
Again, you are talking about today. I know that this time is very beautiful and probably the Golden Age of the Sport. But I am worried about 20 years from now..

The Gi is a big obstacles for the Judo guys, thats true. For me Gi's should be allowed again in MMA. It makes the Sport even more unique and great. I still don't know why they had to ban them.

But some made the transition into MMA because they couldn't reach there goal on the Olympic Level. Guys like Akiyama or Nakamura. Thats the thing.. some might don't even consider to step into MMA.. because they believe in there dream. But what happens if this dream is not achievable anymore?? Some might wanna make the transiton into MMA, just like Akiyama and Nakamura. But they will realize, that the time has changed.. and that MMA is now a true Sport with young mans and womans, who only ever trained MMA to compete in MMA. Judokas like Nakamura, see that and realize.. ohh I think I can not keep up with this new Generation anymore.

Why should I bother to step inside that cage, just to get beat up by some.. who didn't do anything else in there life??

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Again, I see no reason to believe that will happen.
I believe this Sport will change forever..


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Sure. The money in MMA is good enough, and there will continue to be good grapplers who look over at MMA and say "I can do that."

We've seen more of those guys over the last five years than we have at any point in the history of the sport prior. We've seen it coming from wrestling. We've seen it coming from BJJ and Abu Dhabi.
Yes, this right now is the paek of MMA! Masters from all kind of diciplines jump in it and try there luck, to become a MMA champion. But again you are talking about today.. is this really still possible in lets say 20 years. When every MMA gym is full from those Rory McDonald guys??! Who know already everything and are already complete fighter.

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Again, I'm having trouble taking you seriously.

Anyone who thinks that Rory Macdonald represents a significant change in the face of MMA should be equally convinced that Luke Cummo was going to make JKD a formidable fighting style in MMA.

Look at the top ten. How many of those guys started training the way Rory did? None of them.

In fact, the number of guys who came from strictly "MMA/toughman" backgrounds has decreased in the top ten since the days of the old UFC. Before, we actually had guys who didn't have a single style background.

Contemporary fighters are more dependent on a background in a single style to be effective and, just to be clear, the kids who are starting training now, who represent the next generation of fighters, know that.

There are meathead adults who think that they can become MMA fighters by going to an MMA class and doing circuits and learning basic techniques. Those guys (by virtue of that poor approach to training) will never take over the sport.

I think there's no reason to believe that the sport will ever take the road you're talking about. There's no indication that its on that road now.
Again you are talking about today.. This right now, here and now, is the Golden Age of MMA for me. But in 20 years this Sport will change forever.. and not in a good way my friend.

Rory McDonald has one of the greatest futures in MMA ahead of him. Haven't you seen his fight against Condit?? The guy is only 20 years of age.. and already is a complete MMA fighter who just need more experience and training. They guy has no Background. His Background is called MMA. Thats the sad picture of the new generation from this Sport. He is the flagship of this new generation.

This guy has only 1 proffessional loss so far IronMan. This is the sad sad future of this beautiful sport.
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:20 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Old 07-15-2010, 02:43 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BobbyCooper View Post
The reason for that is, that the time isn't there yet. Brock still was able to make the transition into the Sport of MMA.. even though he wasn't able to develope any kind of striking game so far.

The time to this is still there. Brock is still a guy from this time. As was Dan Severn back then! Dan's and Brock's Wrestling background allowed them to make the transition to MMA.

But this is today! What about in 20 years?? Will an ALL american Wrestler still be able to make the transition into this sport?? I don't believe he can! Same goes for every other MArtial Artist out there. Thats why I always mention Damien Maia in here.. does he really have enough time left?
What evidence do you have for this trend?

Seriously? What evidence do you have that, in twenty years, the sport will be different?

You're dealing wholly in the speculative.

The fact is, we have guys that are coming up in the ranks with pure MMA backgrounds and they're not as good as the guys that come from pure styles.


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I don't believe that these guys have enough time left then, to actually develope an at least decent striking game or BJJ game to compete against guys from the new Generation of today.. who started already in an MMA gym. And learned everything together, cause they knew they wanted to become an MMA Fighter someday. But a guy like Brock didn't know that he would rather do this then Pro Wrestling later. He only focused on his Wrestling career at College.

I doupt that he or any other Martial Artist out there, could still keep up with the guys who already learn to compete as an MMA fighter right from the early age. Just for a Sport in a Cage! Guys like Rory McDonald..
I just think this is wrong. We've heard over and over again: The more well rounded fighters are the guys who are going to take over the sport.

We hear it when Rich Franklin was ranked #1 in the world at middleweight. He lost to Anderson Silva. He got destroyed by Anderson Silva. The fact that he was more well rounded, had better wrestling, had been training in all for the styles his whole career and focussed strictly on MMA, was irrelevant.

There are matchups that the more well-rounded guys will win. There are a lot of matchups that those guys will just lose, and as long as there are matchups that the well-rounded fighters lose, there are going to be successful guys coming to MMA from other backgrounds.


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Don't you see, that a guy like Rory McDonald, a guy who has such a bright future ahaead of him will rule this Sport and are the next generation of MMA??
I'm skeptical of MacDonald as a prospect. He's young and he's got a long way to go. Do I think that there will be a point in his career where he can compete with great guys, but I don't know that he'll ever be the greatest fighter in the sport. It's far too early to tell and, frankly, that division on the whole is way too young for MacDonald to be a factor for a while.

That's beside the point, though. You're point is, do I think a fighter like MacDonald could be a force in the UFC.

Sure. But I don't know that a fighter with that rounded a game, without a substantial area of skill that is actually superior, is ever going to be dominant.

Frankly, I think MacDonald and fighters like him are going to have a tough time with fighters like Ben Askren. Can MacDonald beat Askren? Maybe. But if he's on his back he's going to lose, because whatever submission game he's developed isn't going to be able to cope with the top game of Askren.


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This is very true! But again, you are talking about today. You are talking about this century. This is also the Golden Age of MMA for me. This is the most beautiful time of the entire Sport right now in my eyes.

Like I said above.. what is in 20 years from now?? Do you again seriously believe, that a guy like Brock, Demian or any top Level Judoka could still make the transition and step into this Cage?? Against guys who did nothing else then train for this Cage fighting??

Guys like Rory McDonald are the ones!
I see no reason to doubt it. Did a guy with a BJJ blackbelt beat MacDonald in the UFC already? Yes! And that guy wasn't even close to the most proficient grappler in the sport today.

Guys who specialize are always going to have a shot at winning fights, because they can take the fight to where they're comfortable and dominate it.

I've made my skepticism of the practicality of judo in MMA clear already, so I won't bother a second time.


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Of course, not yet! This is the beautiful time of this Sport. But what about in 20 years?? MMA gyms just started to grow and are getting more and more popular. Guys like Rory McDenold are the new generation in my eyes. Guys without a singe background.. just MMA for the Cage. Just training for this Sport!

Guys like Lyoto, Demian, Shinya.. who make this sport so beautiful will just die out?!
Again, give me evidence that this is going to happen. Until you do, it's purely speculative.

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Do you want me to tell you how the Fighter in 20 years looks like??

I tell ya, he is a combination of Muay Thai (Kickboxing), BJJ and Wrestling.. Thats it! Thats the sad new Generation of fighter. Guys like Rory McDonald..
Again, no evidence whatsoever.

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do you really don't see this Sport heading into this direction?
No, I really don't see the sport heading that direction. As I've said a half-dozen times now.

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Again, you are talking about today. I know that this time is very beautiful and probably the Golden Age of the Sport. But I am worried about 20 years from now..
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Again, unless you have evidence to indicate this is going somewhere, you're not making a case.
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I believe this Sport will change forever..
Clearly you do, but you haven't given me a reason why.

I mean, you can talk about Rory MacDonald all you want, but (again) that's like me looking at Luke Cummo after TUF 2 and saying "I think JKD is coming to crush everyone!"


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Yes, this right now is the paek of MMA! Masters from all kind of diciplines jump in it and try there luck, to become a MMA champion. But again you are talking about today.. is this really still possible in lets say 20 years. When every MMA gym is full from those Rory McDonald guys??! Who know already everything and are already complete fighter.
Firstly, not every MMA gym even has one Rory MacDonald. Just like not every BJJ gym has a Marc de Groot. MacDonald is a great competitor, but he's not the future of MMA by any means. He's a standout in a new movement, and the fact that he's the only one around right now says a lot about that movement, in my opinion.

Of course, it's possible that there are guys who could come in and change the sport. But just as I don't think MacDonald's going to be one of them (he certainly isn't yet) I don't think we get to make that claim until we actually see those guys coming. Unless you can tell me where they're hiding, it's all speculative.


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Again you are talking about today.. This right now, here and now, is the Golden Age of MMA for me. But in 20 years this Sport will change forever.. and not in a good way my friend.
We don't get to call this "the Golden Age" of MMA right now. It's a great time to be a fan, but "Golden Age" implies a level of hindsight that doesn't exist.


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Rory McDonald has one of the greatest futures in MMA ahead of him. Haven't you seen his fight against Condit?? The guy is only 20 years of age.. and already is a complete MMA fighter who just need more experience and training. They guy has no Background. His Background is called MMA. Thats the sad picture of the new generation from this Sport. He is the flagship of this new generation.
If MacDonald was 20 years old, ranked in the top ten and fighting for a title, that's fine, but he's not right now. He's just another young guy who's coming into the UFC and looking like a great prospect. He's had one fight against a tier two fighter, which he lost. And while it was a good showing for him, the guy isn't a flagship for anything until he's a contender.

He's a good prospect, don't get me wrong. But we don't get to claim that he's the flagbearer for a new movement until, you know, there's more than just one guy, and that flagbearer is winning major fights.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:38 PM   #38 (permalink)
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You know what? I think you are right with this. You gave me a lot more hope with this post. I really hope you are right with all of what you are saying. Anything else would just destroy this Sport and leave me as a fan.

I really hope that these guys we are talking about here, still have the chance to make it. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so damn fascinating for me. I don't even wanna think about how my future picture would look like in reality.

But since all those MMA gyms just opnened up and people are getting more and more into it and into the Sport of MMA in general.. I see this making waves and producing George St. Pierre clones. GSP who did not have a background in Wrestling, but became the greatest MMA Wrestler today.
So many young kids come out now and they wanna be an MMA fighter someday. Some of them just have to turn into outstanding MMA fighters. Of course they need talent and a lot of dedication to make it, but some will make it! It's very hard to deny that in my opinion.

Even if you do not have much faith in this Rory McDonald guy.. he has all the potential to make it far. Maybe he becomes one of the best strikers in MMA? Who can answer that righ now! Lets see where he stands in 5 years. With only 25 years of age.

And the scary thing is, that he is one of the first guys. One of the really new generation guys. And he is already so far in his career. Doesn't this scare you at least a little bit, that the trend might go exactly into this direction?

Rich Franklin already was one of those guys who made it. Good that you mentioned him. But then of course Anderson came by and destroyed him.. because Anderson isn't just somebody and had a sigificant background in Muay Thai plus a gift from somewhere else to become a fighter. But Rich was at the top for so long, without any signifitant background as a child.
But then he ran into a guy like Lyoto and later Silva.. who had just the superior striking because of there strong backgrounds. So the two guys with the TRUE Martial Arts backgrounds at only one dicipline won there fights at there strenghts. So if this truly remains in the Future, then MMA will always shine. I just hope this will still be the case..
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:55 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BobbyCooper View Post
You know what? I think you are right with this. You gave me a lot more hope with this post. I really hope you are right with all of what you are saying. Anything else would just destroy this Sport and leave me as a fan.

I really hope that these guys we are talking about here, still have the chance to make it. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so damn fascinating for me. I don't even wanna think about how my future picture would look like in reality.

But since all those MMA gyms just opnened up and people are getting more and more into it and into the Sport of MMA in general..
That part's new, and it's fine to speculate about the effect that it will have on the sport, but it's still just speculation. It's not a trend.

When these gyms start producing guys that are competitive, we'll talk more about it, but right now, they're not making an impact.

Frankly, I think being a focussed striker will still mean something in MMA. It certainly does the way the sport is now, and I can't see a guy with no traditional background competing with B.J. Penn or Anderson Silva or Jose Aldo. Or, for that matter, Brock Lesnar. Stylistically, I just don't see it.


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So many young kids come out now and they wanna be an MMA fighter someday. Some of them just have to turn into outstanding MMA fighters. Of course they need talent and a lot of dedication to make it, but some will make it! It's very hard to deny that in my opinion.
Again, I train a lot of kids in BJJ and judo and have started teaching MMA to those who are interested. The thing that they figure out quickly, when they roll with me or one of the guys who has a better ground game than I do is that you have to put the gi on, you have to do 5000 armbars and 5000 repetitions of o goshi and 5000 double legs. You have to get back to the fundamentals of the technique if you want to be able to apply it at all in MMA.

You can't just learn to grapple in an MMA setting and expect to be submitting people constantly. It's not an effective methodology for teaching, and the MMA community knows that. There's a reason why toughmen like Bobby Hoffman and Dan Bobbish were never competitive.


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Even if you do not have much faith in this Rory McDonald guy.. he has all the potential to make it far. Maybe he becomes one of the best strikers in MMA? Who can answer that righ now! Lets see where he stands in 5 years. With only 25 years of age.
Sure, we'll see where he stands in five years. Like I said, he's a good prospect. But is he going to make a run at the title anytime soon? No. Is he going to have a serious impact on the top ten? No.

So, when that time comes, he might very well be someone worth talking about in the context of trends in MMA. Right now, he's not.


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And the scary thing is, that he is one of the first guys. One of the really new generation guys. And he is already so far in his career. Doesn't this scare you at least a little bit, that the trend might go exactly into this direction?
No, because one guy isn't a trend.

There was, for a long time, one successful judoka in MMA outside of Japan (Karo Parisyan) but we were all still skeptical that judo could be made to work in American MMA. It turns out, at least so far, that the skepticism was warranted. Karo was an exception, not a rule.


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Rich Franklin already was one of those guys who made it. Good that you mentioned him. But then of course Anderson came by and destroyed him.. because Anderson isn't just somebody and had a sigificant background in Muay Thai plus a gift from somewhere else to become a fighter. But Rich was at the top for so long, without any signifitant background as a child.
But then he ran into a guy like Lyoto and later Silva.. who had just the superior striking because of there strong backgrounds. So the two guys with the TRUE Martial Arts backgrounds at only one dicipline won there fights at there strenghts. So if this truly remains in the Future, then MMA will always shine. I just hope this will still be the case.
.

Again, I want to be clear: Rich is a single case in the sport. We don't have a trend to look at. We have a few fights. So it's all speculative.

When we start to see more guys like that, we can talk more, but right now, it's really impossible to say with any certainty.
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:57 PM   #40 (permalink)
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You know what? I think you are right with this. You gave me a lot more hope with this post. I really hope you are right with all of what you are saying. Anything else would just destroy this Sport and leave me as a fan.

I really hope that these guys we are talking about here, still have the chance to make it. This Sport would lose everything wich makes it so damn fascinating for me. I don't even wanna think about how my future picture would look like in reality.

But since all those MMA gyms just opnened up and people are getting more and more into it and into the Sport of MMA in general.. I see this making waves and producing George St. Pierre clones. GSP who did not have a background in Wrestling, but became the greatest MMA Wrestler today.
So many young kids come out now and they wanna be an MMA fighter someday. Some of them just have to turn into outstanding MMA fighters. Of course they need talent and a lot of dedication to make it, but some will make it! It's very hard to deny that in my opinion.

Even if you do not have much faith in this Rory McDonald guy.. he has all the potential to make it far. Maybe he becomes one of the best strikers in MMA? Who can answer that righ now! Lets see where he stands in 5 years. With only 25 years of age.

And the scary thing is, that he is one of the first guys. One of the really new generation guys. And he is already so far in his career. Doesn't this scare you at least a little bit, that the trend might go exactly into this direction?

Rich Franklin already was one of those guys who made it. Good that you mentioned him. But then of course Anderson came by and destroyed him.. because Anderson isn't just somebody and had a sigificant background in Muay Thai plus a gift from somewhere else to become a fighter. But Rich was at the top for so long, without any signifitant background as a child.
But then he ran into a guy like Lyoto and later Silva.. who had just the superior striking because of there strong backgrounds. So the two guys with the TRUE Martial Arts backgrounds at only one dicipline won there fights at there strenghts. So if this truly remains in the Future, then MMA will always shine. I just hope this will still be the case..
Kids grow up playing baseball and end up being pro football players, grow up on the swim team and up running track in college. Definitely we will have people training MMA from a young age but we'll still see people coming into MMA with backgrounds in other sports or disciplines.
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