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Old 07-15-2010, 05:28 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
That part's new, and it's fine to speculate about the effect that it will have on the sport, but it's still just speculation. It's not a trend.

When these gyms start producing guys that are competitive, we'll talk more about it, but right now, they're not making an impact.

Frankly, I think being a focussed striker will still mean something in MMA. It certainly does the way the sport is now, and I can't see a guy with no traditional background competing with B.J. Penn or Anderson Silva or Jose Aldo. Or, for that matter, Brock Lesnar. Stylistically, I just don't see it.




Again, I train a lot of kids in BJJ and judo and have started teaching MMA to those who are interested. The thing that they figure out quickly, when they roll with me or one of the guys who has a better ground game than I do is that you have to put the gi on, you have to do 5000 armbars and 5000 repetitions of o goshi and 5000 double legs. You have to get back to the fundamentals of the technique if you want to be able to apply it at all in MMA.

You can't just learn to grapple in an MMA setting and expect to be submitting people constantly. It's not an effective methodology for teaching, and the MMA community knows that. There's a reason why toughmen like Bobby Hoffman and Dan Bobbish were never competitive.




Sure, we'll see where he stands in five years. Like I said, he's a good prospect. But is he going to make a run at the title anytime soon? No. Is he going to have a serious impact on the top ten? No.

So, when that time comes, he might very well be someone worth talking about in the context of trends in MMA. Right now, he's not.




No, because one guy isn't a trend.

There was, for a long time, one successful judoka in MMA outside of Japan (Karo Parisyan) but we were all still skeptical that judo could be made to work in American MMA. It turns out, at least so far, that the skepticism was warranted. Karo was an exception, not a rule.


.

Again, I want to be clear: Rich is a single case in the sport. We don't have a trend to look at. We have a few fights. So it's all speculative.

When we start to see more guys like that, we can talk more, but right now, it's really impossible to say with any certainty.
But what about Takanori Gomi, Evan Tanner, Nate Marquardt? (Nate started with BJJ but mixed that with Kickboxing, Kenpo and Wing Chun at a very young age already.. but I think you can still call his background BJJ).
What about Michael Bisping??

Aren't those guys all true MMA fighters right from the beginning? I think you could call them all MMA fighters. Nobody had a significant background before if I am not wrong. Nate is probably a border case here.. but all the others??

I think there are more Fighters we have already seen, who don't have this typical Martial Arts background.

I don't really believe, that Rich is a single case here.

And now the scary thing again! Those guys I mentioned started there training at a time where they were no MMA gyms. Today you find them on every single corner already. It still worrys me.. and I think you can already see the trend wich tend to the MMA gyms. (Not fighters based)


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Kids grow up playing baseball and end up being pro football players, grow up on the swim team and up running track in college. Definitely we will have people training MMA from a young age but we'll still see people coming into MMA with backgrounds in other sports or disciplines.
Very true! And a mix makes everything even nicer. I just hope that traditional Martial Art will keep his place in the Sport.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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But what about Takanori Gomi, Evan Tanner, Nate Marquardt? (Nate started with BJJ but mixed that with Kickboxing, Kenpo and Wing Chun at a very young age already.. but I think you can still call his background BJJ).
What about Michael Bisping??

Aren't those guys all true MMA fighters right from the beginning? I think you could call them all MMA fighters. Nobody had a significant background before if I am not wrong. Nate is probably a border case here.. but all the others??
Starting with the fighter I know the least about: my understanding is that Bisping had a kickboxing background long before stepping into MMA.

Marquardt clearly started his career in BJJ long before coming to MMA.

Gomi had a boxing background in high school, then branched into catch wrestling from there.

Evan Tanner was a high school state champion in wrestling in Texas.

None of those three are borderline cases.


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I think there are more Fighters we have already seen, who don't have this typical Martial Arts background.

I don't really believe, that Rich is a single case here.
O.K. But all three of the guys you named were brought up in a traditional martial art before coming to MMA. So you haven't really presented a good alternative to Franklin, yet.

Quote:
And now the scary thing again! Those guys I mentioned started there training at a time where they were no MMA gyms. Today you find them on every single corner already. It still worrys me.. and I think you can already see the trend wich tend to the MMA gyms. (Not fighters based)
Again, if there are no top tier competitors who have come out of these gyms, then I don't know what you're worried about.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:55 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Oh ok^^ I am glad you proved me wrong!

Guess I don't have to worry that much about the future anymore now lol^^ I hope you are all so right and that the Sport stays the way it is. Any changes from now on would disappoint me somewhat.. but we can't really prevent that.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:03 PM   #44 (permalink)
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^^^Really? I'm hoping for major changes. Open up a few strikes that are fouls now, legalization and sanctioning in more regions, high caliber athletes coming to the sport, more public acceptance... This sport is in its infancy and needs to continue to change and grow.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:04 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Oh ok^^ I am glad you proved me wrong!

Guess I don't have to worry that much about the future anymore now lol^^ I hope you are all so right and that the Sport stays the way it is. Any changes from now on would disappoint me somewhat.. but we can't really prevent that.
well as you know it takes a very very long time to get black belts in martial arts and my guess is people just don't either have the time,money or patience to do 2 black belt martial arts every week instead of learning everything at one place every week
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:09 PM   #46 (permalink)
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well as you know it takes a very very long time to get black belts in martial arts and my guess is people just don't either have the time,money or patience to do 2 black belt martial arts every week instead of learning everything at one place every week
That may be true, but the guys who are going to be at the top of the sport are the guys who spend their time learning to grapple at a blackbelt level, learning to wrestle at an All-American level, and so on.

I don't know that we'll ever get to a time in the sport where it won't be dominated by top collegiate wrestlers and BJJ blackbelts. If we do, though, it won't be because homogenized MMA gyms put out a better product. I've been to those gyms, there's just no comparison.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:11 PM   #47 (permalink)
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That may be true, but the guys who are going to be at the top of the sport are the guys who spend their time learning to grapple at a blackbelt level, learning to wrestle at an All-American level, and so on.

I don't know that we'll ever get to a time in the sport where it won't be dominated by top collegiate wrestlers and BJJ blackbelts. If we do, though, it won't be because homogenized MMA gyms put out a better product. I've been to those gyms, there's just no comparison.
rude! I trained at SBGi Portland which started out as a BJJ gym but now is full fledged MMA (I rarely saw a gi) and that place produces good fighters in local shows. Obviously not world class or anything, but a lot of the world-class gyms are also basically homogenized MMA now, they just have world-class trainers in every specific area of the game.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:23 PM   #48 (permalink)
 
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Anyone who thinks that Rory Macdonald represents a significant change in the face of MMA should be equally convinced that Luke Cummo was going to make JKD a formidable fighting style in MMA.

Look at the top ten. How many of those guys started training the way Rory did? None of them.

In fact, the number of guys who came from strictly "MMA/toughman" backgrounds has decreased in the top ten since the days of the old UFC. Before, we actually had guys who didn't have a single style background.

Contemporary fighters are more dependent on a background in a single style to be effective and, just to be clear, the kids who are starting training now, who represent the next generation of fighters, know that.

There are meathead adults who think that they can become MMA fighters by going to an MMA class and doing circuits and learning basic techniques. Those guys (by virtue of that poor approach to training) will never take over the sport.

I think there's no reason to believe that the sport will ever take the road you're talking about. There's no indication that its on that road now.[/font]
To be fair IronMan Rory is one of the first guys to really come up this way from a young age, we have seen typically wrestlers etc, excel because they started training in there base at a very young age where your typical guy who goes to a mma gym is that meat head adult your talking about. We are only starting to see the emergence of adults who started training in mixed martial arts in at a young age. Of course you have a point talking about how eventually you need to expand into specialized training but as a base I at the least think Rory is an interesting case study to see how he develops as a fighter as so far he doesn't seem to have a specialty and has thus far looked well rounded. You can take that as a glass half full or half empty though were he doesn't really have an area of weakness but at the same time does not excel in one either.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:33 PM   #49 (permalink)
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rude! I trained at SBGi Portland which started out as a BJJ gym but now is full fledged MMA (I rarely saw a gi) and that place produces good fighters in local shows. Obviously not world class or anything, but a lot of the world-class gyms are also basically homogenized MMA now, they just have world-class trainers in every specific area of the game.
I actually don't think it's quite write to say "they just have world class trainers in every specific area of the game" of SBGP, but I don't want you to feel like I'm coming after your camp. That wouldn't be cool.

Let me say this, though: without a BJJ brownbelt or All-American level wrestling, you can't compete on the ground in top tier of modern MMA, and I don't expect that to change.

As far as teaching "homogenized MMA," that's not really true. Look at ATT, look at Jackson's, look at Sidyotong. These are academies that are not really teaching a homogenized style at all. They're teaching styles and then those guys work out what works for their body type. That's where the wheat gets separated from the chaff.


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To be fair IronMan Rory is one of the first guys to really come up this way from a young age, we have seen typically wrestlers etc, excel because they started training in there base at a very young age where your typical guy who goes to a mma gym is that meat head adult your talking about. We are only starting to see the emergence of adults who started training in mixed martial arts in at a young age. Of course you have a point talking about how eventually you need to expand into specialized training but as a base I at the least think Rory is an interesting case study to see how he develops as a fighter as so far he doesn't seem to have a specialty and has thus far looked well rounded. You can take that as a glass half full or half empty though were he doesn't really have an area of weakness but at the same time does not excel in one either.
But that's my point. We've only seen one guy coming out of these programs and, as it turns out, he's not better than the other young guys who were brought up differently. There aren't that many 20 year olds competing in the UFC, but if you look at Jose Aldo, you see that the one style early life backgrounds even among the younger generation of fighters simply perform better.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I actually don't think it's quite write to say "they just have world class trainers in every specific area of the game" of SBGP, but I don't want you to feel like I'm coming after your camp. That wouldn't be cool.

Let me say this, though: without a BJJ brownbelt or All-American level wrestling, you can't compete on the ground in top tier of modern MMA, and I don't expect that to change.
I wasn't saying they did (because they don't). In fact I went out of my way to differentiate my school from world-class camps, which do usually have world-class trainers. I agree with the rest of what you said.
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